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August 27, 2025, 02:56:01 am

Author Topic: Quick question - where are you up to? What are your struggles with legal?  (Read 2854 times)  Share 

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elysepopplewell

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Hi legal fam!!

I'm just editing the lecture slides for next week (WHO IS KEEEEEEEN?!!!) and I've got too many slides for Legal! I need to cull!

So I'd love for you to tell me: have you covered crime, or human rights, or an option, first?

What are you struggling with? Cases? Understanding the content? Writing responses?

Please let me know :) I'll cull from the slides according to any feedback I can get here :)
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NowYouTseMe

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Hi legal fam!!

I'm just editing the lecture slides for next week (WHO IS KEEEEEEEN?!!!) and I've got too many slides for Legal! I need to cull!

So I'd love for you to tell me: have you covered crime, or human rights, or an option, first?

What are you struggling with? Cases? Understanding the content? Writing responses?

Please let me know :) I'll cull from the slides according to any feedback I can get here :)

My school covered Crime first, but we do a weird order in which we cover Crime first, but leave out international crime so that Young Offenders flows into Family, then World Order with international crime, then Human Rights at the end. I personally lost marks from multiple choice in smaller, more obscure areas of the syllabus such as the adversary system and post-sentencing considerations, however, help with finding the most relevant/persuasive cases would be nice.
Definitely looking forward to the lecture!
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kaylat

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Re: Quick question - where are you up to? What are your struggles with legal?
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2018, 06:54:14 pm »
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Hi legal fam!!

I'm just editing the lecture slides for next week (WHO IS KEEEEEEEN?!!!) and I've got too many slides for Legal! I need to cull!

So I'd love for you to tell me: have you covered crime, or human rights, or an option, first?

What are you struggling with? Cases? Understanding the content? Writing responses?

Please let me know :) I'll cull from the slides according to any feedback I can get here :)

Hey!
We did Human Rights as our first topic and are currently doing Crime. I struggled with understanding state sovereignty and its application to international law... is it legally binding?!?!

Lumenoria

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Re: Quick question - where are you up to? What are your struggles with legal?
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2018, 07:30:47 pm »
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Hey!
We did Human Rights as our first topic and are currently doing Crime. I struggled with understanding state sovereignty and its application to international law... is it legally binding?!?!

This question is a bit confusing, but I think the answer you're asking for is that international treaties/conventions can't be legally binding because state sovereignty overrides it? x
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kaylat

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Re: Quick question - where are you up to? What are your struggles with legal?
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2018, 07:51:13 pm »
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This question is a bit confusing, but I think the answer you're asking for is that international treaties/conventions can't be legally binding because state sovereignty overrides it? x

Yes sorry, I could have worded it a bit better!  ;D
Yes ok... that makes a lot more sense!
Thanks for that!  8)

LOVEPHYSICS

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Re: Quick question - where are you up to? What are your struggles with legal?
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2018, 07:28:30 pm »
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State sovereignty does not override treaties and conventions entered into to create legal relations. Do not confuse enforcement with legal obligations. The fact that the international system has a weak enforcement apparatus, as distinct to a domestic legal system, does not mean that its laws are not binding, or less binding.
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elysepopplewell

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Re: Quick question - where are you up to? What are your struggles with legal?
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2018, 12:40:21 pm »
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Ratified treaties are legally binding. But, state sovereignty will always be a lever to pull to allow states to disregard or compromise their obligations (although not always legally). The point is, despite being legally binding, it doesn't mean countries will abide by it.

This is why in HSC questions we often see "Explain how state sovereignty compromises the effectiveness of multilateral cooperation?" or questions to that effect.
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LOVEPHYSICS

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Re: Quick question - where are you up to? What are your struggles with legal?
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2018, 10:47:29 am »
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Ratified treaties are legally binding. But, state sovereignty will always be a lever to pull to allow states to disregard or compromise their obligations (although not always legally).


What occasions would allow states to use 'state sovereignty' as a lever to disregard or remove their legal obligations? Unless you are including those occasions where a state properly exercises its right to withdraw from a treaty in accordance with the treaty's withdrawal terms (not really thought of too much as an issue of 'state sovereignty'), the short legal answer to that is no occasions whatsoever. The fundamental problem in suggesting that 'state sovereignty' may operate to remove or diminish existing legal obligations is that it assumes, quite falsely, that 'state sovereignty' is a legal principle or rule with legal operation rather than a mere concept, which is ultimately what it is. That is, state sovereignty is merely the idea that states should have exclusive power to rule (largely by way of making laws) its territory and the population therein. So, an apartheid state which willingly entered into a legal treaty to end legal segregation and all racist policies would be legally bound to do so under international law - the fact that it later refuses to do so does not detract from the existence of that international legal obligation; it just means that the state has chosen to exercise its sovereignty in a way inconsistent with its legal obligation, thereby acting in violation  of international law. State sovereignty does not in any shape or form absolve, even theoretically/normatively, a state of an obligation which it has willingly sought to undertake in the first place.

The point is, despite being legally binding, it doesn't mean countries will abide by it.

But the converse of this is also true, and perhaps more relevant: the fact that countries do not abide by their legal obligations does not make them any less legally binding.


This is why in HSC questions we often see "Explain how state sovereignty compromises the effectiveness of multilateral cooperation?" or questions to that effect.

The nub of such questions is simply for students to explain that only states themselves can decide which treaties/initiatives they wish to participate and ratify and hence it is often difficult to reach an effective consensus over international issues given that each state is ultimately dictated by its own unique circumstances and political interests. A second possible point is that even after ratifying a treaty and incurring legal obligations, the concept of state sovereignty means that it should generally be for the state and the state itself to implement those legal obligations in good faith, especially if those obligations entail making or changing domestic laws, rather than through the intervention of other entities or states. But I suspect the realistic view, and indeed the predominant academic view, is that states are left to implement their obligations on their own not so much because of this much-quoted sanctity of 'state sovereignty', rather, because there is no effective way of forcing them to do so. That is, and unlike a domestic legal system, there is no international police force to hold them (especially powerful states) to account.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 10:55:31 am by LOVEPHYSICS »
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elysepopplewell

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Re: Quick question - where are you up to? What are your struggles with legal?
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2018, 11:34:34 am »
+1
What occasions would allow states to use 'state sovereignty' as a lever to disregard or remove their legal obligations?

I'm not saying state sovereignty is an excuse to remove legal obligations.
What you've said below is exactly what I'm trying to say: "the realistic view, and indeed the predominant academic view, is that states are left to implement their obligations on their own not so much because of this much-quoted sanctity of 'state sovereignty', rather, because there is no effective way of forcing them to do so."

The nub of such questions is simply for students to explain that only states themselves can decide which treaties/initiatives they wish to participate and ratify and hence it is often difficult to reach an effective consensus over international issues given that each state is ultimately dictated by its own unique circumstances and political interests. A second possible point is that even after ratifying a treaty and incurring legal obligations, the concept of state sovereignty means that it should generally be for the state and the state itself to implement those legal obligations in good faith, especially if those obligations entail making or changing domestic laws, rather than through the intervention of other entities or states. But I suspect the realistic view, and indeed the predominant academic view, is that states are left to implement their obligations on their own not so much because of this much-quoted sanctity of 'state sovereignty', rather, because there is no effective way of forcing them to do so.


This is very relevant and helpful for HSC students! Thanks for sharing.
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LOVEPHYSICS

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Re: Quick question - where are you up to? What are your struggles with legal?
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2018, 12:25:25 pm »
+2
Apologies if I came off harsh - didn't intend to, just keen to clarify what seems to be an important, but frustrating, confusion that pops up every now and again. I believe the exact same question was asked last year (highly incorrect answers were given). It is really quite a simple concept and I do not understand how the teachers or syllabus keep leading students into this mess. For those students still not clear:

1. State sovereignty simply means that a state should generally, have exclusive power to rule over its land and its people and decide on its national policies without external interference.

2. It is merely an underlying concept or value of the international framework. This is not to undermine its influence - much of substantive international law is grounded on this value or at least tries to be consistent with it; for example, in the area of treaty law, states can only be bound by those treaties which it willingly consent to.

3. It follows therefore, that it is not a specific legal rule or principle and thus has no strict legal effect per se.

4. As such, 'state sovereignty' cannot in itself legally operate to allow states to bypass/disregard/remove their legal obligations. It is true that they are rules which govern how states can withdraw from treaties (not always the case depends on treaty terms) and thus remove its obligations, and these rules can be thought of as reflective of, or influenced by, the concept of 'state sovereignty'. But this is very different from saying that the concept of state sovereignty can exclude or override obligations, which is plainly false.

5.  The fact that sovereign states often refuse to honour its international legal obligations (with seemingly little consequences) does not detract from the legally binding status of those obligations - that is mainly an issue of practical enforcement (its lack of), not of law or sovereignty.

*Unless of course, you wish to make an argument in jurisprudence, that rules cannot be laws per se unless there is habitual obedience or can be enforced/credibly punished (pretty sure this is too deep for HSC).
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 12:59:41 pm by LOVEPHYSICS »
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