WHICH UNI??????

[panicatthelunchbar]

Hi guys, I don't know if anyone ha asked this but I'm considering Law, Science/Law or Commerce/Law as uni course preferences! But which university out of Monash, UoM and ANU is the best for Law? I've heard mixed responses from my friends and teachers, and I though the forum would be the best place to ask!!

Thanks

[mystikal]

ANU and Monash are the only two which have law undergrad degrees. uom has jd but you have to graduate from a degree prior to gettting in. If you can get in undergrad law then i say take it, llb is the same as jd but has different reputations outside of australia. so llb probably favoured in UK but jd is looked on in the US.
ANU is probably the better of the two however, in australia they dont really distinguish between the three, only when it comes to foreign countries. So if you dont mind moving/costs of going to ANU then go, but Monash is a very good option if you get in and if u feel that moving/costs might be too much then Monash is very good option. JD uni of melb.. you have to score quite high in uni so... its not guranteed you will get in when you graduate.

if i had to pick it probably be Monash, guranteed to get in undergrad in terms dont have to reapply for postgrad like UoM, location is good, potential scholarship. Monash has a pretty good reputation in its own right. I reckon Commerce/law is a good combination and is very sought after in this job market.

[tram]

Hi guys, I don't know if anyone ha asked this but I'm considering Law, Science/Law or Commerce/Law as uni course preferences! But which university out of Monash, UoM and ANU is the best for Law? I've heard mixed responses from my friends and teachers, and I though the forum would be the best place to ask!!

Thanks

out of interest what is your motivation to do science/law? just curious... (not discouraging it, just wandering why haha-it actaully is a useful and unique combination)

I reckon Commerce/law is a good combination and is very sought after in this job market.

hmmm not so sure about that, it's a pretty cliched combination and getting jobs in law firms/ big commerce companies is uber competitive unless you're got something really good going for you (ironic seeing as it's a path that i may well go down.. but just saying...)

[paulsterio]

I considered Law/Science because I wanted to apply for graduate medicine afterwards, and if I don't get in, I'll practice law

But I thought about it and I realised that it's not worth it

So if I don't get into Med, I'll do Commerce/Law


But law and science isn't unique they actually have a lot in common, like my favourite subjects are english and maths (which is a science kinda) and when I say they're similar, people disagree, but I personally think that they're fundamentally similar because you're using a means of expressing a viewpoint, whether it is to argue your view on a text or to argue a solution to a mathematical problem, both require analytical thinking and elements of creativeness and most of all, both are subjects where you can really think

(unlike subjects where you rote learn )

[Water]

I considered Law/Science because I wanted to apply for graduate medicine afterwards, and if I don't get in, I'll practice law

But I thought about it and I realised that it's not worth it

So if I don't get into Med, I'll do Commerce/Law


But law and science isn't unique they actually have a lot in common, like my favourite subjects are english and maths (which is a science kinda) and when I say they're similar, people disagree, but I personally think that they're fundamentally similar because you're using a means of expressing a viewpoint, whether it is to argue your view on a text or to argue a solution to a mathematical problem, both require analytical thinking and elements of creativeness and most of all, both are subjects where you can really think

(unlike subjects where you rote learn )

Are you answering his question?




But which university out of Monash, UoM and ANU is the best for Law?

[tram]

yes, yes, this is off topic, but i think mystikal already answered the OP quite well, essentially: ANU if you can afford it, Monash if you get into it, and Melbourne if you don't

I considered Law/Science because I wanted to apply for graduate medicine afterwards, and if I don't get in, I'll practice law

But I thought about it and I realised that it's not worth it

So if I don't get into Med, I'll do Commerce/Law


But law and science isn't unique they actually have a lot in common, like my favourite subjects are english and maths (which is a science kinda) and when I say they're similar, people disagree, but I personally think that they're fundamentally similar because you're using a means of expressing a viewpoint, whether it is to argue your view on a text or to argue a solution to a mathematical problem, both require analytical thinking and elements of creativeness and most of all, both are subjects where you can really think

(unlike subjects where you rote learn )

A few things: don't that this personally, i''ve just been going out of my mind writing math notes for connect and need a good solid argumentative paragraph:

Sigh, i really *raised eyebrow* at people that do the whole "i'm going to do med or law" because frankly they are more or less polar opposites. Med requires being passionate about the body, and going crazily in depth to the anatomy of the body and the many many functions. It is not something you jump into for the hell of it, jsut like Law. Law requires a very different school of thought. Really apart from the fact that both require a *shite*load of work their matter is completely different. Very few if any have an innate aptitude for both, i.e. pretty much NO ONE thinks both genetics AND our contract law are amazing fascinating. Frankly, i think that anyone that has these in their course preferences has not put enough thought into what they really like and are most likely of a.... certain ethnicity... It is pretty much the ridiculous notion of wanting to go into something prestigious because it makes 'use' of your intelligence and what you can be good rather than making use of your passion what what you like doing.

In terms of the similarity between law and science i would have to disagree again. I would also like to take this opportunity to point out that maths is not quite a science more of the language of science, granted that maths and law do have a..... small degree so similarity as both are related to reasoning, but law really is not about reasoning so much as having masses of research into the best precedents/most appropriate law, sure presenting the arguments requires a degree of logic, but not really the kind that you would use within math to do a proof, and even less to the type of thinking required in other sciences with chem and biology where the most problem solving you do it stoich which doesn't exactly require an amazing amount of problem solving.

Also in terms of rote learning, in both law and med there is shit load of sheer information you just have to memorize, no doubt a fair bit of conceptual understand is also required but you will no doubt be doing a good chunk of going over and over information to remember it which by definition is rote learning. Also lets face it by the time you get to the english exam 90% of the people who get above 45 will have written a very similar essay before and gone over the idea and the evidence they will use many times over... hardly formulating amazing ideas for the first time in the exam using your creativity but more regurgitating what you've learnt and perfected, hello again rote learning. (yes. this was exactly what i did, and i am horrible at english yet managed to 'do well')


Having said that:

1) There was a rather interesting speech given by the chief justice of the high court of austral who himself did a science degree and law degree. The merit and usefulness of the science degree (physics) in terms of his career was more the knowledge rather then the 'way of thinking' that his science degree gave him however

http://www.hcourt.gov.au/assets/publications/speeches/current-justices/frenchcj/frenchcj13july09.pdf

2) I don't think you're going to have any problems getting into med given your UMAT-congrats btw

[burbs]

yes, yes, this is off topic, but i think mystikal already answered the OP quite well, essentially: ANU if you can afford it, Monash if you get into it, and Melbourne if you don't

I considered Law/Science because I wanted to apply for graduate medicine afterwards, and if I don't get in, I'll practice law

But I thought about it and I realised that it's not worth it

So if I don't get into Med, I'll do Commerce/Law


But law and science isn't unique they actually have a lot in common, like my favourite subjects are english and maths (which is a science kinda) and when I say they're similar, people disagree, but I personally think that they're fundamentally similar because you're using a means of expressing a viewpoint, whether it is to argue your view on a text or to argue a solution to a mathematical problem, both require analytical thinking and elements of creativeness and most of all, both are subjects where you can really think

(unlike subjects where you rote learn )

A few things: don't that this personally, i''ve just been going out of my mind writing math notes for connect and need a good solid argumentative paragraph:

Sigh, i really *raised eyebrow* at people that do the whole "i'm going to do med or law" because frankly they are more or less polar opposites. Med requires being passionate about the body, and going crazily in depth to the anatomy of the body and the many many functions. It is not something you jump into for the hell of it, jsut like Law. Law requires a very different school of thought. Really apart from the fact that both require a *shite*load of work their matter is completely different. Very few if any have an innate aptitude for both, i.e. pretty much NO ONE thinks both genetics AND our contract law are amazing fascinating. Frankly, i think that anyone that has these in their course preferences has not put enough thought into what they really like and are most likely of a.... certain ethnicity... It is pretty much the ridiculous notion of wanting to go into something prestigious because it makes 'use' of your intelligence and what you can be good rather than making use of your passion what what you like doing.

In terms of the similarity between law and science i would have to disagree again. I would also like to take this opportunity to point out that maths is not quite a science more of the language of science, granted that maths and law do have a..... small degree so similarity as both are related to reasoning, but law really is not about reasoning so much as having masses of research into the best precedents/most appropriate law, sure presenting the arguments requires a degree of logic, but not really the kind that you would use within math to do a proof, and even less to the type of thinking required in other sciences with chem and biology where the most problem solving you do it stoich which doesn't exactly require an amazing amount of problem solving.

Also in terms of rote learning, in both law and med there is shit load of sheer information you just have to memorize, no doubt a fair bit of conceptual understand is also required but you will no doubt be doing a good chunk of going over and over information to remember it which by definition is rote learning. Also lets face it by the time you get to the english exam 90% of the people who get above 45 will have written a very similar essay before and gone over the idea and the evidence they will use many times over... hardly formulating amazing ideas for the first time in the exam using your creativity but more regurgitating what you've learnt and perfected, hello again rote learning. (yes. this was exactly what i did, and i am horrible at english yet managed to 'do well')


Having said that:

1) There was a rather interesting speech given by the chief justice of the high court of austral who himself did a science degree and law degree. The merit and usefulness of the science degree (physics) in terms of his career was more the knowledge rather then the 'way of thinking' that his science degree gave him however

http://www.hcourt.gov.au/assets/publications/speeches/current-justices/frenchcj/frenchcj13july09.pdf

2) I don't think you're going to have any problems getting into med given your UMAT-congrats btw

A hundred times yes! Really well said.
Whenever someone tells me "If I don't get into med I'll do commlaw" I assume they just want prestige and money.

[lynt.br]

lol science and law are completely different. "analytical thinking and elements of creativeness" lol what subject doesn't claim to teach you analytical thinking? it's just academic bs really.
The only overlap you will ever see is in very very niche areas (for example if you take the elective biotechnology and the law and also take the science biotech units you'll probs see a bit of overlap but probably no where else...).

comm/law is one of the most popular double degrees. If you're absolutely set on being a suit and working in a big commercial law firm then you should probs chose this. commercial law firms like grads with some basic grasp of commerce (although its not essential and the commercial law subjects in the law degree are sufficient, having the commerce degree looks nice on your cv).

If you're doing science as well you're probably doing it more for interest/challenge than anything else. there are a few niche areas like IP, energy and technology which do require some science knowledge (kinda important in IP but IP is a very specialised area in law) and also working as in-house counsel for scientific bodies (e.g. CSIRO) but obviously these opportunities are far more limited (then again less people go for them because 90% of law grads want to be a suit in a law firm).

In tems of workload, i think what is said a bout law being some crazy intense subject is mostly bs, at least for Monash law years 1-3. A lot of law subjects don't have any ongoing assessment at all so it's really work at your own pace. You don't need to read anywhere near as much as people make it out to be (honestly I'd say the reading is comparable to science) and a lot of it isn't really conceptually difficult and more how fast can you write... Maybe other law schools are different or Monash gets super hard after 3rd year but so far it hasn't been anywhere near as hard as people make it out to be...

the biggest difficulty is managing time. If you want to do law you're going to need a pretty impressive CV which means you're going to need to do a lot of relevant work experience and extra curriculars. These will eat up your time and effort significantly depending on how much you do... so really it comes down to how well can you manage your time. This semester has been ridiculously intense for me because I've been mooting effectively all semester -__-

Science on the other hand i actually find pretty intense. Science works on the basis of continual assessment meaning every week you will have at least 2 assessed things in the form of labs, quizzes, tests etc. which means there is constant pressure on you to keep up and do all the work/reading or whatever. That combined with nearly double the contact hours of arts/commerce/law makes for a pretty hectic degree.

so yeah that's an outline of the different courses. as for unis, if you get high enough for guaranteed entry go for UoM. Otherwise I would say Monash because you don't have to move (if you move to ANU you're going to need to pay rent = more work = more stress, also Monash has focus on Victorian law) and Monash's law course is pretty chill.

the double degree yo do with law isn;t really that important and employers mainly look at your law grades + extra curriculars/work experience. Commerce is good if you want to do commrecial law and it means you have low contact hours. Science law is pretty intense but personally more interesting/rewarding and it gives your degree more breadth/variability rather than just doing social sciences all day long. At the end of the day either is good enough to get you a good job and if you end up hating your choice you can always do what I did and switch the non-law degree after first year...

[paulsterio]

Woahh, this turned into far more of a discussion than I actually intended, but contrary to popular belief, I actually want to become either a doctor or a lawyer

Like, if you wanted to say that I'm obsessed with money...etc...i would probably go with Dentistry or Actuarial Studies or even Engineering...etc

But the reason I don't want to do dentistry is because you don't get to talk to people and get to know them and work with them so much, it's too "open your mouth and let me pull out your tooth" kinda work and that's not what I like

What appeals to me, with both Medicine (I WANNA BE A GP ) and Law (in terms of work later on) is that they both involve communication, speaking to people, working with people...etc

Plus! They're both jobs that require a physical presence - unlike say Accounting - where your skills are needed - not your presence and hence you can stay locked up in an office all day

[Readinya]

To all of the above:  tl;dr

I like the idea of Medico-law/Forensics. I think it combines science and law quite efficiently.
http://www.vifm.org/

[mystikal]

Woahh, this turned into far more of a discussion than I actually intended, but contrary to popular belief, I actually want to become either a doctor or a lawyer

Like, if you wanted to say that I'm obsessed with money...etc...i would probably go with Dentistry or Actuarial Studies or even Engineering...etc

But the reason I don't want to do dentistry is because you don't get to talk to people and get to know them and work with them so much, it's too "open your mouth and let me pull out your tooth" kinda work and that's not what I like

What appeals to me, with both Medicine (I WANNA BE A GP ) and Law (in terms of work later on) is that they both involve communication, speaking to people, working with people...etc

Plus! They're both jobs that require a physical presence - unlike say Accounting - where your skills are needed - not your presence and hence you can stay locked up in an office all day

um ihave to disagree with you and accounting..thats very stereotypical thinking. if you are an auditor you are basically never in the office and are travelling to see clients and stuff. and other smaller private practices for accountants also have cleints which come to them and have meetings and stuff. so yea =p please dont think accounting is being locked in the office, acturial studies is probably stuck in the office more than accountants.

[LOVEPHYSICS]

I would go for Monash unless you have this dream to practice law in Geneva or with the UN, whereby going to ANU would be quite ideal, if you can afford it (not really that bad at all  if you can get a scholarship and work part time). I guess Melb JD is not advisable if you have your head and heart set on law, given the risk involved: LSAT, application letter and rather stellar marks in your undergraduate. Plus, the JD is postgraduate, so it costs around 20k per year (you can argue that this can offset some of the costs in going to ANU...) whereas LLB normally cost around 8k per year. I wouldn't say ANU law is better than Melb law, they have rather different specializations: Melb with the more old school commercial interests whereas ANU emphasizes on international and constitutional law. In fact, the latest QS ranked Melb Law school in the 9th spot, along with the likes of Harvard, Cambridge, Oxford, Stanford, Yale... and ANU on 15th. Not that you should take these rankings seriously though. Good Luck.

[tram]

Woahh, this turned into far more of a discussion than I actually intended, but contrary to popular belief, I actually want to become either a doctor or a lawyer

Like, if you wanted to say that I'm obsessed with money...etc...i would probably go with Dentistry or Actuarial Studies or even Engineering...etc

But the reason I don't want to do dentistry is because you don't get to talk to people and get to know them and work with them so much, it's too "open your mouth and let me pull out your tooth" kinda work and that's not what I like

What appeals to me, with both Medicine (I WANNA BE A GP ) and Law (in terms of work later on) is that they both involve communication, speaking to people, working with people...etc

Plus! They're both jobs that require a physical presence - unlike say Accounting - where your skills are needed - not your presence and hence you can stay locked up in an office all day

um ihave to disagree with you and accounting..thats very stereotypical thinking. if you are an auditor you are basically never in the office and are travelling to see clients and stuff. and other smaller private practices for accountants also have cleints which come to them and have meetings and stuff. so yea =p please dont think accounting is being locked in the office, acturial studies is probably stuck in the office more than accountants.

Contrary to popular belief where lawyers spend their days in court day after day arguing passionately against the injustice their client is being subjected to, that's just not how it actually works. Firstly, the vast majority of commercial lawyers don't see the inside of court rooms in any substantial way, they are working to create contracts and get deals to go through within the law so that the courts DON'T have to ever get involved. But secondly, lets consider those laywers, commercial and criminal/family/civil alike who do go to court. For every hours spent in court there are innumerable more spend preparing the case, researching precedents and support their case for the way they have interpreted the law. No lawyer who is even half decent goes into a court before dozens of hours of preparation.

Having actually spent time at both a large scale commercial law firm and a large scale professional services firm (i.e. Big 4 accounting) if anything, there is more communication and "physical presence' required at the professional services firm. There is so much more interaction required at the firm where you get all your information from other people and companies, as opposed to a big fat law book.

Accounting (and actuarial for that matter- just on a personal note) require a fair amount of decent communication skills, no-one, and mean no-one gets a good job in the field without being able to interact in a meaningful way, vist one and you'll see.


In terms of money, Actuary's actually don't make THAT much... sure we make a decent amount, but not 'rolling in a pool of money, using $100 bills to light cigars in our private limo' rich, not a by a long shot and same with dentists, and the vast majority of engineers. You know what maks a lot of money? Investment banking and management consulting... that shit's crazy.... but you have no life cos your hours are like 9-12

the biggest difficulty is managing time. If you want to do law you're going to need a pretty impressive CV which means you're going to need to do a lot of relevant work experience and extra curriculars. These will eat up your time and effort significantly depending on how much you do... so really it comes down to how well can you manage your time. This semester has been ridiculously intense for me because I've been mooting effectively all semester -__-

Man this is so totally true, to snare the good jobs anywhere it's all about the extracurrics, so much more important than grades and it's actually true (for the majority of people). To get the good jobs you can either absolutely smash uni, get on deans scholars and get a job by just being academically amazing, or you can get decent grades, and have extracurriculars on your side. Personally i know i'm just not good enough of choose the first option but man does the second option drain a shitload of time, time management is a killer =.=