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July 24, 2025, 12:28:41 am

Author Topic: Immunity trouble.. :(  (Read 9320 times)  Share 

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duhherro

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Re: Immunity trouble.. :(
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2012, 11:02:02 pm »
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The T cell, once activated, does not need to remain bound to the APC, since the APC will be needed to activate other T cells.

APC activates other T cells? What other T cells can this APC activate? The T cell that it just activated, is only specific to that APC (which has the antigen-MHC complex presented on the surface of its membrane). So why are there other T cells binding to that APC? :o

EDIT:
Oh, unless you mean the CD8+ T cells that is specific to that APC (and not OTHER T cells)? That makes sense. Otherwise, could you please elaborate further, thanks.

Ahhh as in that one APC could bind to another TH cell to stimulate more humoral immunity. So does binding to just one APC enough to destroy all the pathogen assuming it came in large numbers?

itsdanny

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Re: Immunity trouble.. :(
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2012, 11:04:25 pm »
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I don't mean to hijack this thread, but, is there ALWAYS a lymphocyte receptor that can bind to an antigen? Is there actually an INFINITE number of B/T lymphocytes like I've heard? Your genome is limited right? So your genes can only randomize and rearrange the DNA a certain number of times? If so, hence the statement that states: "Whatever the antigen, there will be lymphocyte receptor that can bind to it!" is incorrect? It's rare, yes, maybe 0.001% chance that there will be this ONE antigen that will not have a lymphocyte be able to bind to it? Anyone care to elaborate further on this?

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Russ

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Re: Immunity trouble.. :(
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2012, 07:56:19 am »
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Well there obviously cant be an infinite number of cells. However, the question of how we generate so many is a good one. Just rearranging our genes is nowhere near enough. That's why developing lymphocytes undergo random mutations in the DNA that codes for their receptor, to increase variability aa much as possible. Furthermore, after activation, they undergo another period of mutation, in order to increase affinity and change conformation to best fit the antigen.

So whilst not infinite, the chance of seeing an antigen they cannot react with is very low

itsdanny

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Re: Immunity trouble.. :(
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2012, 11:03:34 am »
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So whilst not infinite, the chance of seeing an antigen they cannot react with is very low

Ah. So what if there was an antigen that it could not react with. This would mean that there would be no third line of defense taking place right? What would happen then? Of course the second line would still be taking place, and phagocytes and inflammation are probably going to be the most common methods of ATTEMPTING to eliminate the infection or pathogen whilst interferons assisting in the resistance of surrounding cells and decreasing the virulence of the pathogen itself in doing so. Although, no third line will be able to take place unless and until a B-cell/T-cell is eventually developed and mutated and such, that it can finally bind to that antigen in order to create a specific response and thus a faster response to the pathogen in the mission to eliminate it?

EDIT:
Oh, and could you also respond to my previous post to clear things up:
Here
Thanks Baby Spice,
« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 11:06:29 am by itsdanny »

Russ

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Re: Immunity trouble.. :(
« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2012, 03:54:58 pm »
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Ah. So what if there was an antigen that it could not react with. This would mean that there would be no third line of defense taking place right?

Hypothetically, yes. If there was an antigen that could not be bound by any lymphocyte receptors in the body, then you wouldn't get specific T cell activation etc. as they would be unable to recognize it. However, every such antigen within the pathogen would need to be unrecognizable rather than just one.

Sidenote that's not relevant to VCE but for understanding: T cells can be activated without specific MHC/peptide complex signals if a state of general inflammation exists within the body and there are sufficient inflammatory activatory signals present

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Of course the second line would still be taking place, and phagocytes and inflammation are probably going to be the most common methods of ATTEMPTING to eliminate the infection or pathogen whilst interferons assisting in the resistance of surrounding cells and decreasing the virulence of the pathogen itself in doing so.

Depending on what infection it is, the innate immune system (second line) may be sufficient. Also bear in mind that interferons are generally for viral infections rather than bacterial infections

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Although, no third line will be able to take place unless and until a B-cell/T-cell is eventually developed and mutated and such, that it can finally bind to that antigen in order to create a specific response and thus a faster response to the pathogen in the mission to eliminate it?

If, hypothetically, there was no T cell capable of binding and recognizing any pathogen antigens, and the innate system could not contain the pathogen, then you'd die. Your body would not attempt to develop a T cell that could response, since it's already generating a random selection of receptors for maximum coverage and protection. There's no mechanism in the body to cause developing T/B cells to develop a particular specificity.

Quote
EDIT:
Oh, and could you also respond to my previous post to clear things up:
Here

Other similarly specific cells can be activated. Bear in mind that each pathogen does not contain one, single antigen, it will contain several. So you will get activation of differently specific cells, but they'll all be specific for different parts of the pathogen. You'll also get CD4 (Th) and CD8 (Tc) activation, not just CD8 activation.

itsdanny

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Re: Immunity trouble.. :(
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2012, 12:06:28 pm »
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If, hypothetically, there was no T cell capable of binding and recognizing any pathogen antigens, and the innate system could not contain the pathogen, then you'd die. Your body would not attempt to develop a T cell that could response, since it's already generating a random selection of receptors for maximum coverage and protection. There's no mechanism in the body to cause developing T/B cells to develop a particular specificity.

Okay. Wait, so how long does an inactivated T cell exist in the body before it will die? And when it does die, the immune system / your brain does not know that right? So, upon making new T-cells, the chance of making that same T-cell with the exact same variable regions (that died), could be of any possibility/probability?

Quote
Other similarly specific cells can be activated. Bear in mind that each pathogen does not contain one, single antigen, it will contain several. So you will get activation of differently specific cells, but they'll all be specific for different parts of the pathogen. You'll also get CD4 (Th) and CD8 (Tc) activation, not just CD8 activation.

If there are several antigens present on the pathogen, that would mean there are numerous antigenic determinants on the single antigen? Hence there are quite a lot of binding receptor sites for a lymphocyte and/or APC?
--

And a few general questions, antigens, themselves, are not necessarily all foreign molecules right? Until.. they are classified as non-self or self (or is this the role of self/non-self MHC markers? Could you distinguish the difference and similarities between antigens and MHC markers, sometimes it's rather bewildering)! Thus self-antigens, thereby, don't provoke or initiate any sort of immune response at all? Or they do? And the lymphocyte that had bind to that self-antigen is then destroyed as a result of self-tolerance? But there's a very low chance of this happening right? Because before the lymphocytes are produced, they undergo a sort of "background check" don't they? To see if they will bind to self-antigens located throughout the body and if they are, they are immediately destroyed as a result?

Thanks,

Russ

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Re: Immunity trouble.. :(
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2012, 01:16:28 pm »
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Okay. Wait, so how long does an inactivated T cell exist in the body before it will die? And when it does die, the immune system / your brain does not know that right? So, upon making new T-cells, the chance of making that same T-cell with the exact same variable regions (that died), could be of any possibility/probability?

They have half lives measured in years, so they will be around for a long time. The organ (thymus) that produces your T cells actually degenerates in the early years of life and stops completely during adolescence, so what you make originally is generally enough to see you through. Whilst theoretically you can produce two T cells with the exact same receptor, the probability of this occurring is so negligible that it's essentially irrelevant. The population of T cells with the same receptor will have derived from clonal expansion of the original T cell, not from spontaneous production of new, identical cells.


Quote
If there are several antigens present on the pathogen, that would mean there are numerous antigenic determinants on the single antigen? Hence there are quite a lot of binding receptor sites for a lymphocyte and/or APC?

Yes. But bear in mind that T cells can never bind directly to a pathogen, they can only bind MHC and see pathogens in the context of that.
There's also terminology here, such as "immunogens" being different to "antigens" being different to "epitopes/determinants" but dw about that.

Quote
And a few general questions, antigens, themselves, are not necessarily all foreign molecules right? Until.. they are classified as non-self or self (or is this the role of self/non-self MHC markers? Could you distinguish the difference and similarities between antigens and MHC markers, sometimes it's rather bewildering)!

An antigen is anything that generates an immune response. Usually foreign molecules. Self molecules have the potential to be antigenic, but typically they don't stimulate immune responses (because of tolerance, which you ask about below).
MHC is what the cells of the body use to present antigens (or more correctly, fragments of antigens) to the immune system. T cells bind to MHC/antigen peptide complexes and that's how they see the infection etc. So MHC is the picture frame and the antigen is the picture.

Essentially it's to make it easier for the body. T cells know that whatever they need to respond to will always be shown on MHC. Therefore, they only need to be capable of binding to MHC rather than every conceivable pathogen etc.

Quote
Thus self-antigens, thereby, don't provoke or initiate any sort of immune response at all? Or they do? And the lymphocyte that had bind to that self-antigen is then destroyed as a result of self-tolerance? But there's a very low chance of this happening right? Because before the lymphocytes are produced, they undergo a sort of "background check" don't they? To see if they will bind to self-antigens located throughout the body and if they are, they are immediately destroyed as a result?

Normally they don't. When T cells are being developed there are very stringent tolerance checkpoints they have to pass (the body displays all its self antigens and if T cells respond, they get deleted). That means that only T cells that are not capable of reacting with self make it into the periphery and general circulation of the body.

That's in theory. In practice you usually get a few sneaking out now and again, so there are more mechanisms in the periphery to ensure that those that do get out and activate, cannot cause any serious damage. If those mechanisms fail as well, you get autoimmune disease (T1DM, MS etc.)

itsdanny

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Re: Immunity trouble.. :(
« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2012, 10:42:36 pm »
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Quote
And a few general questions, antigens, themselves, are not necessarily all foreign molecules right? Until.. they are classified as non-self or self (or is this the role of self/non-self MHC markers? Could you distinguish the difference and similarities between antigens and MHC markers, sometimes it's rather bewildering)!

An antigen is anything that generates an immune response. Usually foreign molecules. Self molecules have the potential to be antigenic, but typically they don't stimulate immune responses (because of tolerance, which you ask about below).
MHC is what the cells of the body use to present antigens (or more correctly, fragments of antigens) to the immune system. T cells bind to MHC/antigen peptide complexes and that's how they see the infection etc. So MHC is the picture frame and the antigen is the picture.

Essentially it's to make it easier for the body. T cells know that whatever they need to respond to will always be shown on MHC. Therefore, they only need to be capable of binding to MHC rather than every conceivable pathogen etc.

Wonderful, thanks for that.
So both the classes of MHC actually break the antigen down, and present its fragments? I thought it had only been 1 of the class of the MHC that did that. Thanks for clearing that up.
And also, if it was the antigen was protein-based, usually only part of that protein or a peptide segment of it is antigenic right? Does the same go for all other types of antigens that are besides proteins?

Russ

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Re: Immunity trouble.. :(
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2012, 09:06:24 am »
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Neither class of MHC breaks antigens down. In both cases the cell does it and the MHC just displays the fragments produced.

Non protein antigens are a whole lot more complex and won't really be relevant at VCE. There are other types of T cells and other types of receptors involved in things like glycolipid antigens etc. that you shouldn't worry about.

itsdanny

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Re: Immunity trouble.. :(
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2012, 01:33:09 pm »
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Neither class of MHC breaks antigens down. In both cases the cell does it and the MHC just displays the fragments produced.

Non protein antigens are a whole lot more complex and won't really be relevant at VCE. There are other types of T cells and other types of receptors involved in things like glycolipid antigens etc. that you shouldn't worry about.

I'm aware of that, bad wording on my end. Thanks.
Apologies @OP if I hijacked this thread, I hope the answers have become useful to you though.

duhherro

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Re: Immunity trouble.. :(
« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2012, 07:30:34 pm »
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Haha it is okay danny :D


Also another question, are T-helpers always produced? Or do T-cells undergo proliferation into the T-helper and Cytotoxic ones?

And what happens in a memory T-cell , do they just bind to foreign antigen on MHC 1's and just acts in the same way as a cytotoxic t-cell would ?

duquesne9995

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Re: Immunity trouble.. :(
« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2012, 10:22:03 pm »
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And what happens in a memory T-cell , do they just bind to foreign antigen on MHC 1's and just acts in the same way as a cytotoxic t-cell would ?

I'm confused about this sort of thing too. When T cells bind to infected cells, do they bind to the foreign antigen that the infected cell presents? And is this foreign antigen presented on MHC 1? I thought that MHC 1 are just self markers for the immune system to differentiate between self and non-self?  :-\