Usefulness of ATAR

[kiwikoala]

Found a nice report discussing the ATAR System.
http://www.mitchellinstitute.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Crunching-the-number_Exploring-the-use-and-usefulness-of-the-ATAR.pdf

Picking out some points I found interesting.

Many studies have shown a close correlation between a student’s ranking and their socioeconomic status, suggesting that the ATAR merely reflects broader imbalances in educational opportunity within the school system and reproduces social inequities (Cardak & Ryan, 2009; Lamb et al., 2015; Teese, 2007).

While on average higher ATAR students perform better once they get to university, many low SES students perform better than high SES students for a given ATAR (Messinis & Sheehan, 2015). Using only ATAR to admit prospective students can put lower SES students at a disadvantage, and many universities are now using alternative selection tools as a way to admit more students from equity groups (Harvey et al., 2016).

Just wondering if people at Atarnotes had thoughts on the ATAR system.

[Aaron]

I don't like the idea of the ATAR at all tbh...... and to really add onto that, I don't like the idea of the VCE system either. Essentially training students to study for exams rather than genuine learning. I have seen it all as a teacher from severe anxiety, mental breakdowns and consequences of low SES/limited opportunities impacting their ATAR.

It's an unfair system which favours high SES backgrounds and the independent schools. And if you genuinely believe this isn't the case... then I would really encourage you to rethink your position as you may just well be in the mentioned group. Perhaps you are in the very small minority which hasn't let financial obstacles get in your way or received a scholarship and for that, I say congratulations and wish you all the best in the future... but for the vast majority such opportunities do not exist.

There is a MASSIVE focus on getting the highest ATAR which causes anxiety and panic... in some cases leading to an unhealthy obsession of ranks, mark changes, scaling etc.... When you put it into perspective, the ATAR is a tertiary admissions rank and that's all it was ever designed to be. You know... I look at the decisions students make when picking a VCE program and unfortunately students STILL pick subjects based on scaling as opposed to interest and that really saddens me. Electives and subject options at high school are designed (or really should be designed) for exploration and developing strength/growth areas..... it definitely isn't doing that and really diverts from the purpose of schooling.

We teach students to 'do the best they can' and 'aspire for anything they want to be'... in a system that favours certain groups only and leaves the rest behind to fend for themselves with the very limited resources/opportunities available.

Unfortunately if you have not been in a situation where you have barely anything and have to work for it, you cannot begin to comprehend the challenges that one faces to even get into a university. "Barely anything" could refer to financial obstacles, mental and personal obstacles etc.......

Figure 1 reiterates my point about the ATAR not being an indicator of success at university. It really is true. While they are somewhat lower, just because one does get a lower ATAR...does not guarantee them to fail. It's wrong to assume this (hence why I support an interview in combination with other testing etc for entry). From a personal perspective, I find it absolutely absurd that somebody who chooses to do something like Computing gets scaled down a significant amount as opposed to somebody who might choose Accounting for e.g. which scales slightly up. Goes back to my previous comment about students and choosing subjects based on interest. In an increasingly digital world, you would think Computing/Digital Technologies are a high priority area... yet our current scaling system puts people off pursuing this. There is no incentive or an ability to just "learn".

I'd be in favour of a personal interview where the student has an opportunity to showcase community service, talents, personal statements etc... Sometimes all it takes is a different environment where you're treated like an adult and have much more flexibility, to do well. I know that was definitely the case for me. For e.g. i've always had a lifelong dream to become a teacher and integrate it with IT.... if only I could've shown my knowledge of coding/programming OR all the times I assisted students both inside and outside of school at an interview, rather than being judged based on a "mediocre" ATAR.

I won't bore you with where I came from again as i'm sure many of you understand already from my previous posts on this topic.... but yeah.

Blah.. this gets me really angry. Sorry for the long post.

[Lear]

There is a MASSIVE focus on getting the highest ATAR which causes anxiety and panic... in some cases leading to an unhealthy obsession. When you put it into perspective, the ATAR is a tertiary admissions rank and that's all it was ever designed to be. You know... I look at the decisions students make when picking a VCE program and unfortunately students STILL pick subjects based on scaling as opposed to interest and that really saddens me. Electives and subject options at high school are designed (or really should be designed) for exploration and developing strength/growth areas..... it definitely isn't doing that and really diverts from the purpose of schooling.

I think a factor in this is the University 'guarantees' that are offered if you get an x atar.
For me as an example, my course requires 85. However, the guarantee I wish to attain requires a 99 and is the sole reason why I want a 'high ATAR'
I think the elimination of such guarantees  should also be a step taken.
From the perspective of a year 12, I agree with everything you've said. The difference of resources, support and facilities varies GREATLY over schools and SES categories. No amount of SEAS can truly eradicate that.
 However, the logistics of having interviews for so many courses and positions is something that needs to be overcome.

[kiwikoala]

-snip

I am conflicted as the VCE system (including scaling) definitely benefited me, the exams are written well enough to show you know the content. The system was transparent enough to tell me what exactly was required of me to acheive my goals.

I believe figure one is pointing out that very high ATAR scores correlate success at their bachelor.
The report does go into the downsides of ATAR, "adding pressure to young people", and "– it says little about the full range of accomplishments and broader capabilities a student has cultivated across years of schooling"

I was at a public school kid that has a 28 median study score (source: bettereducation) before I moved to a select entry school. I kept in touch with a lot of them. Those who really wanted to go to uni still managed to, however I believe that schools need to change their behaviour in that ATAR is their only measure of success, like you said, it adds so much pressure to perform exceptionally. There are also many that cruised through High School without working and did not thrive in the university environment and quickly deferred or dropped out, the emphasis on needing to attend university should be lessened. However I think in these days, you can show a lot of what your worth with the many equity schemes and pathways.

[dcesaona]

Like many others, I really don't like the ATAR system. I'm not too knowledgable on it, however I have experienced my fair share of panic attacks and anxiety from the subjects I have chosen that are low scaling, as well as an obsession with ranks, AND an unhealthy need to get a high atar for my own personal satisfaction (possibly due to the large emphasis that's placed on it....I know it shouldn't, but it makes me feel like the ATAR is definitive of your intelligence, WHICH IT'S NOT...although it's treated like that). I do both Visual Arts and Drama, two subjects that are notorious for scaling poorly. I tried my hardest to get out of drama when I realised too late that there was the potential that it could drag my atar down, and as a result I've hated every minute of it. It really sucks that students are deterred from doing what they love because they're worried about scaling. The amount of times I've cried, stressed and had mental breakdowns over this ATAR, I swear.

So yeah, I guess I hate it.

[kiwikoala]

-snip

Not sure if this is you, but aren't the goals of folio students completely different? I know for RMIT many of their design and arts subjects don't require an ATAR and instead you have to go through their "selection kit". I have a couple of friends who scored 50s and got into bachelors they're loving, of which I'm very happy that the system worked out for them.

[Bri MT]

The school I went to had a median study score of 27 when I left and 23 four years earlier (we also didn't didn't have any 90+ ATARs until my cohort) and while there were other changes through this period imo one of the biggest changes was in mindset. An entry scheme letting you get in with an ATAR 5 points lower or whatever cannot balance out the impacts of believing you can't achieve because you haven't seen people like you do that before. 

I was lucky to be in the rare position of my parent having gone to university and instilling love of learning in me from a young age.  That advantage can't be quantified or evidenced but it certainly was significant. 

There were also incidences where students experienced significant disadvantages that could be evidenced and didn't feel that they could or should document these through SEAS

Entry schemes can't measure and account for everything