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October 01, 2025, 04:55:58 am

Author Topic: Of what use are the humanities?  (Read 7887 times)  Share 

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brendan

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Re: Of what use are the humanities?
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2009, 11:32:49 am »
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Do you consider any writer, filmmaker or sports star to have made a positive contribution to the world [though not having directly saved lives]?   I rest my case

When I declare that the humanities are of no use whatsoever, I am talking about humanities departments (“the humanities” is an academic, not a cultural category), not about poets and philosophers and the effects they do or do not have in the world and on those who read them.

...
another colleague, a friend, who announced one day that members of English departments were “parasites on the carcass of literature.” A medical doctor, he was also a lover of literature and just didn’t see why a world that already had poets and novelists and playwrights needed an army of people feeding off them.

His sentiments were echoed by those respondents who complained that humanities departments are narrowly professional and concerned largely with reproducing themselves. “A father” reports the “repugnant truth” that “the humanities is study of a discipline. Mastery of the discipline qualifies you to profess it.” Qjiang observes that “there are Shakespeares and Shakespeare’s interpreters” and “Humanities nowadays… largely and unfortunately refer to the latter."

That’s right. What is in need of defense is not the existence of Shakespeare, but the existence of the Shakespeare industry (and of the Herbert industry and of the Hemingway industry), with its seminars, journals, symposia, dissertations, libraries. The challenge of utility is not put (except by avowed Philistines ) to literary artists, but to the scholarly machinery that seems to take those operating it further and further away from the primary texts into the reaches of incomprehensible and often corrosive theory. More than one poster decried the impenetrable jargon of literary studies. Why, one wonders, is the same complaint not made against physics or economics or biology or psychology, all disciplines with vocabularies entirely closed to the uninitiated?

The answer is that those disciplines are understood to be up to something and to be promising a payoff that will someday benefit even those who couldn’t read a page of their journals. What benefit do literary studies hold out to those asked to support them? Not much of anything except the (parochial) excitement experienced by those caught up in arcane discussions of the mirror stage, the trace, the subaltern and the performative. (Don’t ask.)
« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 11:34:26 am by Brendan »

Eriny

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Re: Of what use are the humanities?
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2009, 12:38:48 pm »
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humanities strikes me as a field of study which is both normative and empirical.

There's a lot of prescriptive stuff going on in humanities "what ought to be" type arguments - but I don't know if there is much empirical work in humanities departments, if any at all. You can generally tell whether there is much empirical work by looking at whether any math/statistics subjects are required to major in a particular discipline. The one exception i can think of is psychology though it's methods of inquiry have gotten more and more rigorous over the years that it is now generally considered more of a science than a humanities.

Furthermore only very recently have empirical methods have been used in traditionally humanities/sociology related fields - and only in very selected fields. Take for example the Journal of Empirical Legal Studies which was established in 2004 - just 5 years ago. Most of the empirical methods have been borrowed from economics too.

Maybe in your PhB @ ANU students both have the ability and are encouraged to think empirically, but i doubt that most humanities students have the ability to think empirically at all. Reading a lot of the literature on public policy i find it astounding just how often people, with much academic credentials typically in the humanities / social science areas (excluding economics), will infer causation from correlation.



I don't really mean 'empirical' in the strict sense of experimentation and data collation, although in fields like sociology, that does happen (sociology is technically a social science though - I'm not sure if this thread's use of 'humanities' excludes social sciences or not. If it does, we're limiting our discussion to only a few fields of study). I mean it as the philosophical branch of 'empiricism', as in, knowledge arises through observation and subsequent description. Evidence is still required, the only difference is the type of evidence that is used. In the case of the humanities, for example, someone might analyse a speech or text and try to come to a conclusion on what it is the text/speech is doing. This is a descriptive function of the humanities. It certainly attempts to describe how things are, and there is still a great deal of evidence required to do this.

I think many people in social science disciplines do have a tendency to think that correlation is equal to causation. My politics readings did that so often that it started to frustrate me. However, I think this is more of a case of 'bad writers' rather than 'bad discipline'. Especially if the writer is blinded by their own prejudices, they're more likely to say 'see, this proves it', rather than 'this could suggest...'. And certainly, in fields like philosophy and anthropology, you really can't get away with doing that. I remember one anthropology lecture where we were told that we can't say things like 'smoking causes cancer' because not everyone who smokes gets cancer, even if the two things have a well-established link. I'm not sure exactly, but with the exception of postmodernist political scientists (and surprisingly few exist in the discipline) political science still likes to think that it can actually find definitive answers that are simply true, so when you write something that might undermine this, like saying 'when I'm arguing X, I am assuming Y for Z reason' (so, you've justified the assumption, but you know that it's still an assumption and you say so - it needs to happen sometimes to get anywhere) marks would definitely be taken off, you're supposed to pretend that you aren't assuming anything. Whereas, in philosophy, this would be commended.

bubble sunglasses

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Re: Of what use are the humanities?
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2009, 10:12:35 pm »
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I had this problem with a few friends last year. I just asked them "will humanities be able to cure cancer one day". that is all.

history might be able to save lives, through warning people of past catastrophic mistakes
   but even if they can't, so what? Do you consider any writer, filmmaker or sports star to have made a positive contribution to the world [though not having directly saved lives]?   I rest my case

 I was addressing Kurrymuncher

bubble sunglasses

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Re: Of what use are the humanities?
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2009, 12:22:51 pm »
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 Journalist Toby Young seems to believe that "cultural capital" [referred to in the article] retains its value today

 "This book is almost guaranteed to do well because the fear of being dull is one of the principal reasons people buy books in the first place. We devour Robert Harris’s latest novel -- and Anthony Beever’s most recent account of an epic battle -- because it will give us something to talk about the next time we find ourselves in a socially competitive situation. The notion that people read for pleasure is completely wrong-headed. People read in order to avoid the displeasure of not having anything to say when the latest book comes up in conversation."

 http://www.tobyyoung.co.uk/page_3/

brendan

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Re: Of what use are the humanities?
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2009, 12:30:46 pm »
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 Journalist Toby Young seems to believe that "cultural capital" [referred to in the article] retains its value today

 "This book is almost guaranteed to do well because the fear of being dull is one of the principal reasons people buy books in the first place. We devour Robert Harris’s latest novel -- and Anthony Beever’s most recent account of an epic battle -- because it will give us something to talk about the next time we find ourselves in a socially competitive situation. The notion that people read for pleasure is completely wrong-headed. People read in order to avoid the displeasure of not having anything to say when the latest book comes up in conversation."

 http://www.tobyyoung.co.uk/page_3/

In terms of justifying the humanities:

The second justification for studying the humanities that in my view has some force speaks to those of us who have been trapped in conversations with people who, after “How about those Bears?” (the equivalent of “hello” in Chicago), can think of nothing to say. EM observes that “being exposed to great ideas from variety of fields . . . and learning how to think critically all make for a more interesting and informed person” and that “lots of people want interesting and informed people as their friends, lovers and employees.” Amen. Count me as one of those who would welcome an increase in the number of those who can be relied on to enliven a dinner party rather than kill it (although I have seen dinner parties killed by the most erudite and sophisticated person at the table). But it won’t do as a defense society will take seriously to say, Let’s support the humanities so that Stanley Fish and his friends have more people to talk to.

bubble sunglasses

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Re: Of what use are the humanities?
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2009, 10:23:04 am »
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  ^I agree with the last line there. But Fish could have given his view on whether other academic departments were worthy of government funding, as there's a difference between saying "no academic sector should receive funding" and "humanities alone should support itself".

bubble sunglasses

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Re: Of what use are the humanities?
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2009, 11:07:09 pm »
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 Also, many other subjects, including economics and finance, serve principally to enrich, equip, develop students, only indirectly benefitting society. If having a direct benefit to society was the benchmark required for government funding, humanities would be in good company in having to support itself.

costargh

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Re: Of what use are the humanities?
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2009, 11:26:25 pm »
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 Also, many other subjects, including economics and finance, serve principally to enrich, equip, develop students, only indirectly benefitting society. If having a direct benefit to society was the benchmark required for government funding, humanities would be in good company in having to support itself.

Wouldn't all education share the commmon traits of being 'enriching and equiping' then?

bubble sunglasses

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Re: Of what use are the humanities?
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2009, 11:32:09 pm »
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 Also, many other subjects, including economics and finance, serve principally to enrich, equip, develop students, only indirectly benefitting society. If having a direct benefit to society was the benchmark required for government funding, humanities would be in good company in having to support itself.

Wouldn't all education share the commmon traits of being 'enriching and equiping' then?

 Yes, but for some subjects/courses you might be more able to claim they directly benefit society.

costargh

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Re: Of what use are the humanities?
« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2009, 11:58:46 pm »
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Yes, but for some subjects/courses you might be more able to claim they directly benefit society.

Such as?

bubble sunglasses

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Re: Of what use are the humanities?
« Reply #40 on: January 27, 2009, 12:28:02 am »
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Yes, but for some subjects/courses you might be more able to claim they directly benefit society.

Such as?
ones which could lead to cures for harmful diseases

costargh

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Re: Of what use are the humanities?
« Reply #41 on: January 27, 2009, 12:34:11 am »
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But wouldnt those courses just equip those students with the skills necessary to find those cures, not directly being beneficial to society?

I fail to see the distinction you're trying to make :S

bubble sunglasses

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Re: Of what use are the humanities?
« Reply #42 on: January 27, 2009, 05:53:29 am »
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  Maybe the distinction is clearer at post-graduate level; a researcher trying to find a cure vs a historian trying to give an original account of the causes of WWI. Anyway, my original point, close to what you seem to be getting at was "Fish could have given his view on whether other academic departments were worthy of government funding, as there's a difference between saying "no academic sector should receive funding" and "humanities alone should support itself".