Should France ban the veil?

[naved_s9994]

Read this one people..

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_do_Muslims_wear_the_veil

A muslim lady on the hijab

-Not sure, if this post has been linked on this topic as yet.. I haven't read all pages.. but read most!

[Yitzi_K]

Yep, and so the choice really isn't "burqa or no burqa"

it really becomes...

"burqa... or my entire family and community?"

what a choice, what a free will choice.

You're completely missing the point here. Just imagine for a moment that you believe in G-d, an all supreme being, who punishes those who disobey Him, and rewards those who listen to Him.

In such a scenario, you would do what He wants, whether you like it or not. It's a question of belief; if you believe, you do.

For Muslim women, it's not a choice of burqa or not, it's a choice of G-d or not, because clearly, one cannot have one and not the other. To say that Muslim women should keep their religion but not obey their G-d is utterly oxymoronic.

[ninwa]

You're completely missing the point here. Just imagine for a moment that you believe in G-d, an all supreme being, who punishes those who disobey Him, and rewards those who listen to Him.

In such a scenario, you would do what He wants, whether you like it or not. It's a question of belief; if you believe, you do.

For Muslim women, it's not a choice of burqa or not, it's a choice of G-d or not, because clearly, one cannot have one and not the other. To say that Muslim women should keep their religion but not obey their G-d is utterly oxymoronic.

I thought the Quran doesn't explicitly mention the burqa? Are you saying all the women who choose only to wear a veil covering their hair are not obeying god?

Read this one people..

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_do_Muslims_wear_the_veil

A muslim lady on the hijab

-Not sure, if this post has been linked on this topic as yet.. I haven't read all pages.. but read most!

I found a similar article

interesting article

http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/behind-the-veil-lives-a-thriving-muslim-sexuality/2008/08/29/1219516734637.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1

really interesting read!

[enwiabe]

Yep, and so the choice really isn't "burqa or no burqa"

it really becomes...

"burqa... or my entire family and community?"

what a choice, what a free will choice.

You're completely missing the point here. Just imagine for a moment that you believe in G-d, an all supreme being, who punishes those who disobey Him, and rewards those who listen to Him.

In such a scenario, you would do what He wants, whether you like it or not. It's a question of belief; if you believe, you do.

For Muslim women, it's not a choice of burqa or not, it's a choice of G-d or not, because clearly, one cannot have one and not the other. To say that Muslim women should keep their religion but not obey their G-d is utterly oxymoronic.

This is precisely what i'm talking about. The word of 'God' is "don't give into sexual temptation". A harmless tenet. Until man intereferes with it, and exploits women to get rid of their own failings. Man created the burqa to subjugate the women in order to fulfil their observance of God. Seems justified, right?


You also seem to have completely abandoned your argument about it being a two-way street. The truth too harsh?

[Yitzi_K]

You're completely missing the point here. Just imagine for a moment that you believe in G-d, an all supreme being, who punishes those who disobey Him, and rewards those who listen to Him.

In such a scenario, you would do what He wants, whether you like it or not. It's a question of belief; if you believe, you do.

For Muslim women, it's not a choice of burqa or not, it's a choice of G-d or not, because clearly, one cannot have one and not the other. To say that Muslim women should keep their religion but not obey their G-d is utterly oxymoronic.

I thought the Quran doesn't explicitly mention the burqa? Are you saying all the women who choose only to wear a veil covering their hair are not obeying god?

I don't know the exact religious imperatives of Islam. Quite possibly there are some who would consider only the full veil acceptable, while others believe it is ok to do with less. In such a case, for a women who believes that it is an imperative for her to wear a full veil, then yes, for her to only cover her hair would be disobeying G-d. Assuming she believes in G-d, what is she to do? Wear the veil (willingly or not), and be secure in the knowledge that she is doing the right thing, or not wear it, and be constantly (in her mind) condemning herself to divine retribution?

Of course some will say that the above scenario is simply an outcome of the brainwashing of the women when she was younger, but let's face it, every child is brainwashed by their parents in some way or other (eg to obey the laws of the country). Who are you to say what is 'good' brainwashing and what is 'bad' brainwashing.

[enwiabe]

"Good" brainwashing is the reasoned explanation of the rights of man and citizen. Do not infringe others, otherwise do whatever you want.

"Bad" brainwashing is when you infringe on the rights of your children. You curb their free will by telling them what god to believe in (no religious freedom), by telling them what to do and wear (no free choice), etc.

There is a degree of reasonableness. This is a feeble attempt to draw attention away from the fact taht you have finally acknowledged that the burqa is nothing more than artful brainwashing.

The forcing of the burqa on women is sick, disgusting, and a complete a violation of their human rights.

[Yitzi_K]

This is precisely what i'm talking about. The word of 'God' is "don't give into sexual temptation". A harmless tenet. Until man intereferes with it, and exploits women to get rid of their own failings. Man created the burqa to subjugate the women in order to fulfil their observance of God. Seems justified, right?


You also seem to have completely abandoned your argument about it being a two-way street. The truth too harsh?

And how exactly do you presume to know the word of G-d? How do you know what G-d requires of each one of us? Have you studied Islam to the point that you know exactly what laws are specifically mandated by G-d, and which are enactments by the religious leaders themselves? I doubt it.

Case in point - possibly 98% of Jewish law is not specifically mentioned in the Bible. You will not find any direct reference of G-d instructing man to carry out these laws. Yet we still believe that these 98% of laws are directly from G-d, by way of an oral tradition. Now I have no idea if Islam also believes in such an oral tradition. Do you?

I've stopped my argument on the two-way street idea purely because I don't know enough about Islamic law to continue it. You could be right, and I could be wrong, but on the same token I doubt you know enough about Islamic law to continue it either.

[Yitzi_K]

"Good" brainwashing is the reasoned explanation of the rights of man and citizen. Do not infringe others, otherwise do whatever you want.

"Bad" brainwashing is when you infringe on the rights of your children. You curb their free will by telling them what god to believe in (no religious freedom), by telling them what to do and wear (no free choice), etc.

There is a degree of reasonableness. This is a feeble attempt to draw attention away from the fact taht you have finally acknowledged that the burqa is nothing more than artful brainwashing.

The forcing of the burqa on women is sick, disgusting, and a complete a violation of their human rights.

So you've decided what is 'good' and what is 'bad'. Clearly you have the belief that you are a moral authority above all others on this planet. Clearly I cannot hope to argue with you, because you know what is good and what is bad, what is right and what is wrong. That is shocking arrogance on your part.

I have NOT acknowledged that it is brainwashing. I have only acknowledged that what some would call instilling belief in G-d is what others would call brainwashing, IMO incorrectly.

[enwiabe]

So much faith based on such little evidence.

Women subjugated according to a religion that they do not believe until their parents effectively say "believe it or we won't love you".

The case in point is, I know enough about Islamic law to know that the men do not cover the face, and therefore it is NOT a two-way street. That is an airtight proof that it is a sexist policy. Refute that. Women have a sex drive and sexual temptation much the same as men, so why are only women required to cover up? As I said before, the only justification is a sexist one.

You were more than happy to argue Islamic law when you thought you were winning, but it is clearly becoming evident that your copout of choice is "I don't know enough to continue". I do not know a great deal about Islam, you are right, but I know enough to know that the burqa is an extremely sexist and oppressive institution. And you can make the argument from common sense, not religion.

[Yitzi_K]

So much faith based on such little evidence.

Women subjugated according to a religion that they do not believe until their parents effectively say "believe it or we won't love you".

The case in point is, I know enough about Islamic law to know that the men do not cover the face, and therefore it is NOT a two-way street. That is an airtight proof that it is a sexist policy. Refute that. Women have a sex drive and sexual temptation much the same as men, so why are only women required to cover up? As I said before, the only justification is a sexist one.

You were more than happy to argue Islamic law when you thought you were winning, but it is clearly becoming evident that your copout of choice is "I don't know enough to continue". I do not know a great deal about Islam, you are right, but I know enough to know that the burqa is an extremely sexist and oppressive institution. And you can make the argument from common sense, not religion.

Again you're not seeing my point! How do you know that according to Islamic belief it is not specifically mandated by G-d himself (for whatever unfathomable reason best left to Himself) that women cover their face and men don't?!?

[enwiabe]

"Good" brainwashing is the reasoned explanation of the rights of man and citizen. Do not infringe others, otherwise do whatever you want.

"Bad" brainwashing is when you infringe on the rights of your children. You curb their free will by telling them what god to believe in (no religious freedom), by telling them what to do and wear (no free choice), etc.

There is a degree of reasonableness. This is a feeble attempt to draw attention away from the fact taht you have finally acknowledged that the burqa is nothing more than artful brainwashing.

The forcing of the burqa on women is sick, disgusting, and a complete a violation of their human rights.

So you've decided what is 'good' and what is 'bad'. Clearly you are a moral authority above all others on this planet. Clearly I cannot hope to argue with you, because you know what is good and what is bad, what is right and what is wrong.

I have NOT acknowledged that it is brainwashing. I have only acknowledged that what some would call instilling belief in G-d is what others would call brainwashing, IMO incorrectly.

I have not decided what is good or bad. Logic has. You can clearly make the argument from logic that society expects you to not infringe on the rights of others. Therefore it is perfectly valid for parents to teach this to their children as they grow up, so that they can become functioning members of society.

What you cannot argue from logic, is that it is right to brainwash your children into believing in your god, as that is an extremely personal philosophy that ideally should be arrived at by an autonomously thinking adult. Not a vulnerable, susceptible child whose only 'choice' is to trust their primary caregivers implicitly.

In a fair, and just society, you should make available to your children all religions, including non-religion (atheism) and agnosticism, and then let them decide. Unfortunately, parents realised many moons ago that if you truly gave your child the right to decide, they would actually shock and horror make their own choice about matters which affect their lives...

I am comforted by the shift to secularism. Because each day, more and more people come to this realisation that religion is of the self, and not something to force upon others. Religion is what you believe, and if you truly loved your children, you'd let them decide for themselves and love them all the same.

But ultimately, as I harken back to my previous post, many of us are still so insecure about our place in the universe, that religion is all they have to cling to in the desperate scramble for answers... and when that insecurity is exposed, that is when the abuses happen.

[enwiabe]

So much faith based on such little evidence.

Women subjugated according to a religion that they do not believe until their parents effectively say "believe it or we won't love you".

The case in point is, I know enough about Islamic law to know that the men do not cover the face, and therefore it is NOT a two-way street. That is an airtight proof that it is a sexist policy. Refute that. Women have a sex drive and sexual temptation much the same as men, so why are only women required to cover up? As I said before, the only justification is a sexist one.

You were more than happy to argue Islamic law when you thought you were winning, but it is clearly becoming evident that your copout of choice is "I don't know enough to continue". I do not know a great deal about Islam, you are right, but I know enough to know that the burqa is an extremely sexist and oppressive institution. And you can make the argument from common sense, not religion.

Again you're not seeing my point! How do you know that according to Islamic belief it is not specifically mandated by G-d himself (for whatever unfathomable reason best left to Himself) that women cover their face and men don't?!?

... I'm not talking about god now. I'm talking about logic and reason. So really, you're missing my point. The point I subtly made was that, either:

- God is sexist in forcing the burqa on women only
- The burqa is a product of the institution of sexism in society

Either way, it doesn't bode well for either case...

[ninwa]

Again you're not seeing my point! How do you know that according to Islamic belief it is not specifically mandated by G-d himself (for whatever unfathomable reason best left to Himself) that women cover their face and men don't?!?

"And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, (with their Khimar) and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified, or the children who have not reached puberty. They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies. All of you shall repent to GOD, O you believers, that you may succeed." 24:31

...

Notice also the expression in 24:31,

"They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary."

This expression may sound vague to many because they have not understood the mercy of God. Again God here used this very general term to give us the freedom to decide according to our own circumstances the definition of "What is necessary".

It is not up to a scholar or to any particular person to define this term. God wants to leave it personal for every woman and no one can take it away from her. Women who follow the basic rule number one i.e. righteousness, will have no problem making the right decision to reveal only which is necessary.

...

THE WORD "HIJAB" in the QURAN

"Hijab" is the term used by many Muslims women to describe their head cover that may or may not include covering their face except their eyes, and sometimes covering also one eye. The Arabic word "Hijab" can be translated into veil or yashmak. Other meanings for the word "Hijab" include, screen, cover(ing), mantle, curtain, drapes, partition, division, divider.

Can we find the word "Hijab" in the Quran??

The word "Hijab" appeared in the Quran 7 times, five of them as "Hijab" and two times as "Hijaban," these are 7:46, 33:53, 38:32, 41:5, 42:51, 17:45 & 19:17.

None of these "Hijab" words are used in the Quran in reference to what the traditional Muslims call today (Hijab) as a dress code for the Muslim woman.

...

In 24:31 God is asking the women to use their cover (khimar)( being a dress, a coat, a shawl, a shirt, a blouse, a tie, a scarf . . . etc.) to cover their bosoms, not their heads or their hairs. If God so willed to order the women to cover their heads or their hair, nothing would have prevented Him from doing so. GOD does not run out of words. GOD does not forget. God did not order the women to cover their heads or their hair.

Yeah, it's Yahoo answers i.e. not the most reliable resource out there, but I bet this person knows more about Islam than any of us.

[enwiabe]

for whatever unfathomable reason best left to Himself

That is exactly how these atrocities are committed. "Because god said so". Seriously. That is, exactly what I was talking about. Whenever our beliefs are threatened, we say "IT'S FOR THE GREATER GOOD! GOD SAID SO!"

Sigh. I wish people would see that for what it is, a weak copout to excuse the evils of man.

[Yitzi_K]

I am comforted by the shift to secularism. Because each day, more and more people come to this realisation that religion is of the self, and not something to force upon others. Religion is what you believe, and if you truly loved your children, you'd let them decide for themselves and love them all the same.

But ultimately, as I harken back to my previous post, many of us are still so insecure about our place in the universe, that religion is all they have to cling to in the desperate scramble for answers... and when that insecurity is exposed, that is when the abuses happen.

On that, we'll have to agree to disagree, because you will never be able to convince me that my religious beliefs are incorrect, and I imagine neither I yours. It appears that that is the crux of this debate, whether or not we allow G-d to be the moral arbiter. That being the case, it seems somewhat pointless to continue this argument, unless we go out on a tangent and first establish whether G-d himself is real or not. That's not something I'm averse to by the way, but it would require a separate, probably much longer discussion.

- God is sexist in forcing the burqa on women only

I have to wonder how you can say that. Assuming we are labouring under the assumption that G-d exists, He, being the supreme being, would have invented morals and ethics, and therefore is the One to decide what is sexist and what isn't.