Should France ban the veil?

[ninwa]

Who says men aren't judged for doing it? Just because they work to remove the temptation, doesn't mean they aren't guilty if they do.

Could someone clarify on this? Are men judged for "succumbing to temptation"? We've all heard of the cases where women have been stoned to death etc. for being raped, but are the men punished too? (typical media only reporting the more shocking aspects)

[Yitzi_K]

Who says men aren't judged for doing it? Just because they work to remove the temptation, doesn't mean they aren't guilty if they do.

Could someone clarify on this? Are men judged for "succumbing to temptation"? We've all heard of the cases where women have been stoned to death etc. for being raped, but are the men punished too? (typical media only reporting the more shocking aspects)

A google search for 'man stoned for adultery' gives plenty of results.

[m@tty]

Wow, I didn't see one that wasn't Islamic

EDIT: On the first page. Just to save people getting angry, thinking I was speaking in absolutes..

[Cthulhu]

I know there have been killings in the name of God by "Christians" in the last century, thought they were really more a cult by that stage. I know not of Judaism. But really I only know what the media tells me... I haven't done any research or anything... And yes, I have heard of a LOT more about Islam... I hear heaps of crap about Islam..

And therein lies my point. There are a myriad problems with Islam. The forcing of women to wear a veil is but one of them. If you're going to start cracking down on Islamic practices, where do you stop?

There are a myriad of problems with all religions. Why don't we just get rid of them all?

[methodsman]

sorry i haven't read this whole argument but my view on this niqaab debate:
i really do feel sorry for the woman that do wear the head to toe veil which also covers their face. Like honestly i'm not trying to degrade islam at all because i have heaps of mates that a muslim for one, but i mean where's their identity? what's the point of really living if you don't even have a face? i dont get the reasoning behind covering your face like i think god wouldn't have given woman faces if god intended them to be covered up.. it doesn't make any sense.

on a side note, i think you can band covering the face but nothing else.... THE FACE MAN thats what makes  US .. US!

btw sorry if this came out a bit harsh towards those that do wear the head to toe veil. although i doubt theyd be on this forum let alone the internet lol

I thought they CHOSE to wear it rather than being forced. There are muslim women out there who don't wear it...
Though, in countries where such practice is FORCED is completely ridiculous and needs to get with the times.

[naved_s9994]

Quote Methodsman -

I thought they CHOSE to wear it rather than being forced. There are muslim women out there who don't wear it...
Though, in countries where such practice is FORCED is completely ridiculous and needs to get with the times.


Exactly, its culture!
Besides, they dont wear it at home...only in public, that too by their personal choice!

[enwiabe]

Quote Methodsman -

I thought they CHOSE to wear it rather than being forced. There are muslim women out there who don't wear it...
Though, in countries where such practice is FORCED is completely ridiculous and needs to get with the times.


Exactly, its culture!
Besides, they dont wear it at home...only in public, that too by their personal choice!

how can it really be their choice when you get your clerics saying shit like

"Many women who do not dress modestly ... lead young men astray, corrupt their chastity and spread adultery in society, which (consequently) increases earthquakes"

It's brainwashing, pure and simple. If you're brought up and your parents teach you "if you don't wear the burqa you're betraying your religion", and the parents hold that religion dear to them, do you honestly think that most children will entertain the idea of not wearing it?

We have to realise that when people are brought up to feel that their parents' love is predicated on their adoption of the family's religious beliefs, that the wearing of the burqa is not really a choice; it's a forfeiture to emotional blackmail...

[naved_s9994]

Quote Methodsman -

I thought they CHOSE to wear it rather than being forced. There are muslim women out there who don't wear it...
Though, in countries where such practice is FORCED is completely ridiculous and needs to get with the times.


Exactly, its culture!
Besides, they dont wear it at home...only in public, that too by their personal choice!

how can it really be their choice when you get your clerics saying shit like

"Many women who do not dress modestly ... lead young men astray, corrupt their chastity and spread adultery in society, which (consequently) increases earthquakes"

It's brainwashing, pure and simple. If you're brought up and your parents teach you "if you don't wear the burqa you're betraying your religion", and the parents hold that religion dear to them, do you honestly think that most children will entertain the idea of not wearing it?

We have to realise that when people are brought up to feel that their parents' love is predicated on their adoption of the family's religious beliefs, that the wearing of the burqa is not really a choice; it's a forfeiture to emotional blackmail...

Not muslim, btw
______________________________________________
Ahmm..Yea, I do agree with that though.
Obviously it has an impact!

[enwiabe]

Quote Methodsman -

I thought they CHOSE to wear it rather than being forced. There are muslim women out there who don't wear it...
Though, in countries where such practice is FORCED is completely ridiculous and needs to get with the times.


Exactly, its culture!
Besides, they dont wear it at home...only in public, that too by their personal choice!

how can it really be their choice when you get your clerics saying shit like

"Many women who do not dress modestly ... lead young men astray, corrupt their chastity and spread adultery in society, which (consequently) increases earthquakes"

It's brainwashing, pure and simple. If you're brought up and your parents teach you "if you don't wear the burqa you're betraying your religion", and the parents hold that religion dear to them, do you honestly think that most children will entertain the idea of not wearing it?

We have to realise that when people are brought up to feel that their parents' love is predicated on their adoption of the family's religious beliefs, that the wearing of the burqa is not really a choice; it's a forfeiture to emotional blackmail...

Not muslim, btw
______________________________________________
Ahmm..Yea, I do agree with that though.
Obviously it has an impact!

Yeah, and now consider that the justification of the burqa is "we do not want to be tempted by sexuality, therefore we're going to cover the women up"

The men of the religion basically said "right, Allah says we can't be tempted by sexuality... so instead of controlling ourselves, we're going to cover up our women"

How does punishing the women make any sense??? Learn some god damn self control. If that's what you believe, that you should not give into temptation by sexuality, then by all means KEEP IT IN YOUR PANTS. But why does that mean you ought to then say "women should over up and if they don't cover up it's not our fault if we give in".

In that way, you basically blame women for your own failings. It's so wrong. It's so wrong on SO MANY levels. It is, completely, treating women like property. Arghghghg it's just so backwards.

[fady_22]

Quote Methodsman -

I thought they CHOSE to wear it rather than being forced. There are muslim women out there who don't wear it...
Though, in countries where such practice is FORCED is completely ridiculous and needs to get with the times.


Exactly, its culture!
Besides, they dont wear it at home...only in public, that too by their personal choice!

Naved, some women feel compelled to wear it. I know of many Muslim women who wear it because their family and friends would judge them if they did not, and not because they "choose" to wear it.

And some women aren't allowed to go out into public anyway.
There is one muslim doctor I know that does all the shopping and other errands for his wife. I have never seen her. She never answers the door, never sits with guests. I highly doubt that she chose to live like this.

Disgusting, in my opinion.

[naved_s9994]

Quote Methodsman -

I thought they CHOSE to wear it rather than being forced. There are muslim women out there who don't wear it...
Though, in countries where such practice is FORCED is completely ridiculous and needs to get with the times.


Exactly, its culture!
Besides, they dont wear it at home...only in public, that too by their personal choice!

Naved, some women feel compelled to wear it. I know of many Muslim women who wear it because their family and friends would judge them if they did not, and not because they "choose" to wear it.

And some women aren't allowed to go out into public anyway.
There is one muslim doctor I know that does all the shopping and other errands for his wife. I have never seen her. She never answers the door, never sits with guests. I highly doubt that she chose to live like this.

Disgusting, in my opinion.

"I know of many Muslim women who wear it because their family and friends would judge them if they did not, and not because they "choose" to wear it. " Exactly, its quite bad. Its what I meant to convey.

True story...

Its funny how once, I had this conversation with a Muslim Victorian Police Officer (a father of a friend) .
and I asked him, what his views were on this very topic...
to which he promtly replied... a muslim women who doesnt wear the hijab isnt a muslim??!!

It came to my mind after I read your post ( I remembered him strtaight away!) , and yea fair point they'd be judged.

[Yitzi_K]

How does punishing the women make any sense??? Learn some god damn self control. If that's what you believe, that you should not give into temptation by sexuality, then by all means KEEP IT IN YOUR PANTS. But why does that mean you ought to then say "women should over up and if they don't cover up it's not our fault if we give in".

In that way, you basically blame women for your own failings. It's so wrong. It's so wrong on SO MANY levels. It is, completely, treating women like property. Arghghghg it's just so backwards.

I'd imagine it's a two-way street... I don't know the rules exactly, but I'd be very surprised if there were no laws dictating a certain standard of dress for men too.

And who said that this "if they don't cover up it's not our fault if we give in" is the case? Again, I'm no expert, but I'd imagine that in Islamic belief the men do get punished for adultery, just as the women do. It's all about removing temptation, so as to steer as far as possible away from betraying G-d.

Also, the 'controlling oneselves' approach is not exactly feasible. One only has to look at the Catholic Church for evidence of that.

[enwiabe]

Quote Methodsman -

I thought they CHOSE to wear it rather than being forced. There are muslim women out there who don't wear it...
Though, in countries where such practice is FORCED is completely ridiculous and needs to get with the times.


Exactly, its culture!
Besides, they dont wear it at home...only in public, that too by their personal choice!

Naved, some women feel compelled to wear it. I know of many Muslim women who wear it because their family and friends would judge them if they did not, and not because they "choose" to wear it.

And some women aren't allowed to go out into public anyway.
There is one muslim doctor I know that does all the shopping and other errands for his wife. I have never seen her. She never answers the door, never sits with guests. I highly doubt that she chose to live like this.

Disgusting, in my opinion.

"I know of many Muslim women who wear it because their family and friends would judge them if they did not, and not because they "choose" to wear it. " Exactly, its quite bad. Its what I meant to convey.

True story...

Its funny how once, I had this conversation with a Muslim Victorian Police Officer (a father of a friend) .
and I asked him, what his views were on this very topic...
to which he promtly replied... a muslim women who doesnt wear the hijab isnt a muslim??!!

It came to my mind after I read your post, and yea fair point they'd be judged.

Yep, and so the choice really isn't "burqa or no burqa"

it really becomes...

"burqa... or my entire family and community?"

what a choice, what a free will choice.

[ninwa]

I'd imagine it's a two-way street... I don't know the rules exactly, but I'd be very surprised if there were no laws dictating a certain standard of dress for men too.

... shorts, tshirt and thongs

Also, the 'controlling oneselves' approach is not exactly feasible. One only has to look at the Catholic Church for evidence of that.

Women are punished because men use the "we couldn't control ourselves" excuse. How can you not see how disgusting that is?
On a slight tangent, there was an article in The Age today about an abuse victim (who is still Catholic) who explained that priests tended to abuse young boys because 1) nuns tended to be responsible for a girl's religious education; and 2) many believed that relations with boys doesn't count as breaking their vow of celibacy.
... just wow.

Its funny how once, I had this conversation with a Muslim Victorian Police Officer (a father of a friend) .
and I asked him, what his views were on this very topic...
to which he promtly replied... a muslim women who doesnt wear the hijab isnt a muslim??!!

hahaha I almost want to introduce him to my Muslim friend, it would be highly entertaining to see her reaction to that

[enwiabe]

How does punishing the women make any sense??? Learn some god damn self control. If that's what you believe, that you should not give into temptation by sexuality, then by all means KEEP IT IN YOUR PANTS. But why does that mean you ought to then say "women should over up and if they don't cover up it's not our fault if we give in".

In that way, you basically blame women for your own failings. It's so wrong. It's so wrong on SO MANY levels. It is, completely, treating women like property. Arghghghg it's just so backwards.

I'd imagine it's a two-way street... I don't know the rules exactly, but I'd be very surprised if there were no laws dictating a certain standard of dress for men too.

And who said that this "if they don't cover up it's not our fault if we give in" is the case? Again, I'm no expert, but I'd imagine that in Islamic belief the men do get punished for adultery, just as the women do. It's all about removing temptation, so as to steer as far as possible away from betraying G-d.

Also, the 'controlling oneselves' approach is not exactly feasible. One only has to look at the Catholic Church for evidence of that.

Right, even if there are punitive measures for the men, covering up the women still siphons off the blame. If it were truly the man's fault for giving in in the eyes of the religion, then they'd be the only ones getting the blame.

The fact that the women must cover up is entirely a method of shifting blame away from the man. A cop-out to shift at least some of the blame away from his own failings.

And how is not feasible to control one's actions? Should we cover up all our money to prevent people from stealing it? If someone leaves a $10 note on the counter because they drop their phone and go to pick it up, does that in any way absolve the person standing next to them of stealing it? They should have sufficiently removed all temptation, right?

No, ultimately, it's lunacy to say that somebody else is responsible for another person's choices and actions. It's a weak copout. Women are used as scapegoats for the failing of weak men. It doesn't just happen in Islam, it happens everywhere. Because women are physically inferior, that is what has happened for the past 3000 years and they had no choice.

Finally, humanity is catching up its brains to its brawn and common sense is beginning to prevail. This is just one of the remaining remnants of thousands of years of patriarchy.

Your argument that "men must cover up too" is illogical, as men are allowed to show their faces. Biology has shown that the female sexual urge is just as storng as the man's. Why is a female's face more chaste than a man's? Logically, it's not. You can ONLY justify it with sexism. The fact that there is no male burqa proves this...