Should France ban the veil?

[Glockmeister]

me and I am going to show that".

So you're assuming that all women that wear the Burqa were forced to wear it, shouldn't muslim women in France be asked if this is true first, then if the find that they don't feel equal because of it, ban the wearing of it?

I think in theory this is a good idea, but consider that if the women were really being forced to wear those things by their families, would they really dare to be honest and stand up and say "I am not doing this out of my free will"?

Also, the French constitution does not allow the gathering of statistics relating in any way to religious affiliation, so that might start to border on the unconstitutional for them too.

Well, there are ways to get around that, such as focus group and assuring anonymity, that sort of thing.

You have freedom of choice up until it infringes on the rights of others. With your first example, not wearing anything creates a culture of fear for all parents where they are afraid to take their children out in public.

What about, by not wearing a burqa, you're creating a culture of fear amongst Muslim parents for example. Should we therefore force everyone to wear a burqa then? (I'm playing devil's advocate here, I'm actually not advocating this)

I will reiterate my point though: France is a bit misguided about banning the burqa, as it's merely treating the symptom of what is the real problem, that is as you've mentioned, the problem with how women are treated in Islamic culture, and more generally, integration of Muslims amongst broader society.

[ninwa]

Wait how is it creating a culture of fear against Muslim parents? :S

Also what about when things like this happen

[superflya]

gg who cares.

[ninwa]

interesting article

http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/behind-the-veil-lives-a-thriving-muslim-sexuality/2008/08/29/1219516734637.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1

[Glockmeister]

Wait how is it creating a culture of fear against Muslim parents? :S

Also what about when things like this happen

Amongst.

By that I mean in a similar way to how parent may react if they see their say teenage daughter in sexually provocative clothing.

[QuantumJG]

If Iran is allowed to have a law requiring all women to cover their bodies except their hands/faces why isn't France allowed to have a law requiring women to show their faces? oh right. Because that would be *oppression*.

I agree with this as its true, no matter what religion you follow, if you are a woman you must cover up if your in Iran.

But western countries pride ourselves on allowing you to follow any religion, so I guess we probably shouldn't ban the veil or the above goes out the door. Also being countries that allows people to follow scientology, I personally would ban scientology before trying to tweak with other religions.

[TrueLight]

i don't believe the government should force this law onto the french muslim women who chose to wear the burqa. if you think its oppression and women's rights etc.etc.. then by forcing this law your creating the same problem of oppression against women who freely chose to wear this clothing. by not allowing women to wear it, is not the way to improve their human rights.. and i think that if this law is in place it will have an unintended consequence of isolating the muslim women further than what they are now.

[ninwa]

Amongst.

By that I mean in a similar way to how parent may react if they see their say teenage daughter in sexually provocative clothing.

Still not following you...


French police fine Muslim driver for wearing veil

[Souljette_93]

I wasn't calling it oppression I was making light of/fun of/pointing out the fact that Souljette called it oppression. I don't think it is oppression wanting to be able to see someones face so they can identify them.

Yes, i said it was oppression because these women choose to wear the niqab and Someone is forcing her to take it off. Can you imagine the devastation that she will feel?
Obviously you won't fully understand, but there are those who have spiritual/religious connection to it.

i don't exactly understand;

The burqa infringes on a woman's right to equality. That is what makes it unacceptable. Any culture set is FINE up until the point where it infringes on another's human right (to be safe in one's environment, to choose, to be equal under the law, etc.) after which it cannot be tolerated in a society like that of the French.

How? & Why?

Do you really believe that if the burqa infringes women's right to equality, they would choose to wear it?  Who would do that?

Wearing a head-to-toe covering while your husband walks alongside you in t-shirt and thongs (which I've unfortunately seen too many times at shopping centres etc.) makes you feel equal? Seriously?

Why not?
i don't believe equality is achieved through dress code. It is the treatment that makes a difference.

Why? Because according to my friend, "it's the 21st century and I am an equal to the man next to me and I am going to show that".

-This was pretty disturbing, especially from a Muslim perspective. Does it take you for you to be uncovered to show your equal to man?



Regards,
Souljette

Souljette<3

[enwiabe]

Souljette, unfortunately, I believe you have been a victim of this brainwashing. It is evident from your seemingly oblivious quote here:

"Do you really believe that if the burqa infringes women's right to equality, they would choose to wear it?  Who would do that?"

Who would do that? Who would choose to wear it? You ask. The fact of the matter is, they don't choose to wear it. Petrified young women who are afraid of the abuse and backlash they would face from family and community if they dared to defy them and their traditions. If you really believe that this does not exist, and that it is not a significant problem in your faith, then I think you ought to open your mind a little bit more to the truth.

The debate here is not really about whether this problem of the subjugation of women in French Islamic society exists, the debate is more about is this an effective means of putting an end to it? And while I do certainly believe what I'm arguing, I do not profess to be correct, as we have no way of knowing until after the fact. I'm of the belief that this will minimise the harm and begin to break open the taboo on women's rights in the French Islamic community. From then on, the progress towards equality will be much quicker.

You will find a litany of examples of persecution of women based on their refusal to wear a niqab. And those are just the ones we know about. I shudder to think at all the oppressed who would be suffering alone, afraid to speak out. They would number far more than those that have had the amazing courage to come forward with their stories in the face of such adversity.

[enwiabe]

i don't believe the government should force this law onto the french muslim women who chose to wear the burqa. if you think its oppression and women's rights etc.etc.. then by forcing this law your creating the same problem of oppression against women who freely chose to wear this clothing. by not allowing women to wear it, is not the way to improve their human rights.. and i think that if this law is in place it will have an unintended consequence of isolating the muslim women further than what they are now.

This is a good point, and you are certainly correct that this law would supplant one oppression with the other. As I said before, it comes down to a battle of which right is more important? Freedom of religion, or freedom of equality?

The thing is though, it is a policy of harm minimisation. The argument goes, yes, it would infringe on the rights of some to freedom of religion, but the damage done by impedence of this right, in the bigger picture, is less so than the damage of continuing this medieval patriarchal microcosm that exists within a secular French society, which shed its feudal system hundreds of years ago and has been working towards full equality under the law for both men and women ever since.

[superflya]

enwiabe dont think souljettes been brainwashed at all, matter of fact aside from the minority that are as u say forced to wear it, the majority do it willingly.

[ninwa]

enwiabe dont think souljettes been brainwashed at all, matter of fact aside from the minority that are as u say forced to wear it, the majority do it willingly.

Can you prove that? None of us can really prove what "most" women are feeling. But surely the fact that some are forced to wear it shows that it is a form of repression. We can't just ignore them in favour of statistics.

[Twenty10]

How can they know how they want to dress, when all their life they've been brainwashed with "if you don't dress like this, you're a worthless slut who should be stoned to death"?

How do you know that they do not know how they want to dress? Do you know this from somebody you know or is it just an assumption?

[Souljette_93]

you haven't answered my question.
I just think people really have the wrong idea of the Niqab. They don't understand the essence/beauty of it ( which i don't expect many people too, even amongst Muslims themselves)

Who would do that? Who would choose to wear it? You ask.

I would choose to wear it. I don't have any problem with it, and if any women feels like she is in need of wearing it then so be it. Why the fuss?

The fact of the matter is, they don't choose to wear it. Petrified young women who are afraid of the abuse and backlash they would face from family and community if they dared to defy them and their traditions. If you really believe that this does not exist, and that it is not a significant problem in your faith, then I think you ought to open your mind a little bit more to the truth.

Who said it didn't exist? Yes it is possible to find situations such as these and nobody said it was correct. We don't approve of these things since not every one agree that it is compulsory to wear it. My point is not everyone is forced to wear it ( And if they are, it is not right) and i would say majority wear it from the freedom of their choice.
My faith is not the problem, it would have to be the people who are enforcing such things.
But why is that an excuse for Banning the Niqab all together?


And just to clairfy something, i am not brainwashed. I see the wearing of the BUrqa in a completely different manner that perhaps you will not understand.

Regards,
Souljette