Should France ban the veil?

[enwiabe]

How can they know how they want to dress, when all their life they've been brainwashed with "if you don't dress like this, you're a worthless slut who should be stoned to death"?

How do you know that they do not know how they want to dress?

Because they've never been given the alternative, now have they?

[Twenty10]

How can they know how they want to dress, when all their life they've been brainwashed with "if you don't dress like this, you're a worthless slut who should be stoned to death"?

How do you know that they do not know how they want to dress?

Because they've never been given the alternative, now have they?

Well not in Islamic countries but here and many other countries they have yet they still choose to wear it.

Still, just because they're not allowed to dress alternatively doesnt mean they wont know how they want to dress. Its like saying that you've never been a millionaire so you wont know how to become one.

[Blakhitman]

Ninwa, Next time you see a man walking with his wife that is covered, why don't you ask her if she feels she is being forced or if she feels she is unequal to her husband because of what she is wearing.

Reminds me of this video I watched a long long time ago- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgqXKqO8BDw&feature=related

[TrueLight]

i don't believe the government should force this law onto the french muslim women who chose to wear the burqa. if you think its oppression and women's rights etc.etc.. then by forcing this law your creating the same problem of oppression against women who freely chose to wear this clothing. by not allowing women to wear it, is not the way to improve their human rights.. and i think that if this law is in place it will have an unintended consequence of isolating the muslim women further than what they are now.

This is a good point, and you are certainly correct that this law would supplant one oppression with the other. As I said before, it comes down to a battle of which right is more important? Freedom of religion, or freedom of equality?

The thing is though, it is a policy of harm minimisation. The argument goes, yes, it would infringe on the rights of some to freedom of religion, but the damage done by impedence of this right, in the bigger picture, is less so than the damage of continuing this medieval patriarchal microcosm of French which infringes the rights of every woman in the microcosm.

i still believe that government cannot protect oneself from harm (if you believe that is what it is doing)
and if that occurs doesn't that set the precendent to ban other things? if you ban something you don't agree with, why not ban other things as well?
and really when you ask muslim people whether the burqa is a sign of oppression, you will definetly get different answers

[Cthulhu]

Wait how is it creating a culture of fear against Muslim parents? :S

Also what about when things like this happen

Or what about situations like this or this?

[ninwa]

Ninwa, Next time you see a man walking with his wife that is covered, why don't you ask her if she feels she is being forced or if she feels she is unequal to her husband because of what she is wearing.

I'm not sure her husband would take kindly to that, considering he was always walking a few steps ahead of her - a sign of dominance, superiority.

I have spoken to Muslims who feel it is a symbol of inferiority. Obviously, that is a very skewed view, considering I don't actually have Muslim friends who choose to wear it. However, I still think that kind of testimony is not completely redundant.

You took my comment out of context. You made an assumption which didn't make sense to me, and I countered it with what I inferred from my observations. Can you now explain why you assume that women feel more equal if they were covered from head to toe while their husbands walked around in very Westernized clothing?

Because just as you assumed that the women do not feel equal, then I can assume that the women do not feel that, rather they like wearing it and will not feel equal if they are not free to wear what they like.

[enwiabe]

you haven't answered my question.
I just think people really have the wrong idea of the Niqab. They don't understand the essence/beauty of it ( which i don't expect many people too, even amongst Muslims themselves)

Who would do that? Who would choose to wear it? You ask.

I would choose to wear it. I don't have any problem with it, and if any women feels like she is in need of wearing it then so be it. Why the fuss?

The fact of the matter is, they don't choose to wear it. Petrified young women who are afraid of the abuse and backlash they would face from family and community if they dared to defy them and their traditions. If you really believe that this does not exist, and that it is not a significant problem in your faith, then I think you ought to open your mind a little bit more to the truth.

Who said it didn't exist? Yes it is possible to find situations such as these and nobody said it was correct. We don't approve of these things since not every one agree that it is compulsory to wear it. My point is not everyone is forced to wear it ( And if they are, it is not right) and i would say majority wear it from the freedom of their choice.
My faith is not the problem, it would have to be the people who are enforcing such things.
But why is that an excuse for Banning the Niqab all together?


And just to clairfy something, i am not brainwashed. I see the wearing of the BUrqa in a completely different manner that perhaps you will not understand.

Regards,
Souljette

Firstly, I believe I did answer your questions

I'm sure you would choose to wear it, it's what you've known all your life. But let me ask you a personal question, and you can choose not to answer it if you wish, that's fine, I more than understand. What do you honestly think your parents and family would do if you chose to go out in public without the niqab on? And, now tell me, if you weren't so strong in your convictions, and thought that the niqab was pointless (hypothetically), would the reaction of your family influence your decision to continue wearing it? Perhaps you might even go up and ask them hypothetically how they'd react?

Of course, you may well have perfectly reasonable parents who are not a part of the problem I'm talking about. But then again, they could be like these people who allowed, wait, participated in murdering their wives, sisters, mothers and daughters:

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/02/08/iraq.women/index.html?eref=ib_topstories
http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/germany.htm
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/muslim-husband-who-killed-his-wife-and-children-because-of-their-western-ways-437199.html
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,1244406,00.html


In that last article, we find: "In 2000, the United Nations estimated that around 5,000 girls and women in at least 14 countries, among them Pakistan, Jordan and Turkey, were killed yearly because their families felt they brought dishonor on them.

But statistics in Europe are hard to come by given the fact that some honor-related crimes are recorded as simple murders or domestic violence."


That's 5,000 murders EACH YEAR because they didn't wear the burqa. Not only that, it's only 5,000 that we KNOW of. Not to mention that as stated, many of these killings are not divided according to that category and are put down as "domestic abuse" or just "murder" with no subdivision. So if there are 5,000 actual KILLINGS (that we know of) which you would hope are "rare" cases, then how many more millions of women wear the burqa for fear of being in that 5,000 (but likely double or triple) figure.

If you honestly think this isn't a massive problem, then this debate cannot have an agreed foundation upon which to stand, because at this point, you're simply denying fact.

[ninwa]

Oops sorry didn't see your post Souljette.

Yes, i said it was oppression because these women choose to wear the niqab and Someone is forcing her to take it off. Can you imagine the devastation that she will feel?
Obviously you won't fully understand, but there are those who have spiritual/religious connection to it.

Of course there's a religious connection to it - it stems from the Quran doesn't it?

A personal question which you don't have to answer (as I mentioned none of my female Muslim friends have chosen to wear any sort of covering so I only have their viewpoints): do you wear some sort of covering? What is your spiritual/religious connection to it? Why do you wear it? (I'm assuming you've made the choice to, rather than just following in your family's traditions.)

For the record I don't think France is doing the right thing. I do think it is a symbol of oppression, but I think there are better ways of going around it than by using brute force legislation to force women not to wear it, and I think it'll do more harm than good. Although it is somewhat understandable considering France's historical fear of any religion and any overt expressions of affiliation to any sort of group, religious or otherwise.

Wearing a head-to-toe covering while your husband walks alongside you in t-shirt and thongs (which I've unfortunately seen too many times at shopping centres etc.) makes you feel equal? Seriously?

Why not?
i don't believe equality is achieved through dress code. It is the treatment that makes a difference.

Why? Because according to my friend, "it's the 21st century and I am an equal to the man next to me and I am going to show that".

-This was pretty disturbing, especially from a Muslim perspective. Does it take you for you to be uncovered to show your equal to man?

I assume you mean equality comes from how people are treated, not what they wear. Why, then, is the Quran interpreted in such a way as to state that women must dress so conservatively but men may wear shorts (revealing legs), t-shirts (revealing arms) and no head coverings (revealing hair)?
How is that not unequal treatment? How is a woman wearing a burqa showing that she is equal to man?

[superflya]

Ninwa, Next time you see a man walking with his wife that is covered, why don't you ask her if she feels she is being forced or if she feels she is unequal to her husband because of what she is wearing.

I'm not sure her husband would take kindly to that, considering he was always walking a few steps ahead of her - a sign of dominance, superiority.

I have spoken to Muslims who feel it is a symbol of inferiority. Obviously, that is a very skewed view, considering I don't actually have Muslim friends who choose to wear it. However, I still think that kind of testimony is not completely redundant.

You took my comment out of context. You made an assumption which didn't make sense to me, and I countered it with what I inferred from my observations. Can you now explain why you assume that women feel more equal if they were covered from head to toe while their husbands walked around in very Westernized clothing?

Because just as you assumed that the women do not feel equal, then I can assume that the women do not feel that, rather they like wearing it and will not feel equal if they are not free to wear what they like.

thats quite the observation. a lil over the top..

[ninwa]

lol okay sorry.

*he was walking a few steps ahead of her then whole time I happened to be walking behind them in the same direction, from the shops to their car, approximately 400 metres or so.

better?

[Twenty10]

lol okay sorry.

*he was walking a few steps ahead of her then whole time I happened to be walking behind them in the same direction, from the shops to their car, approximately 400 metres or so.

better?

So male dominance over women is not present in just Islamic cultures are they? Just because this man was dominant over his wife doesn't mean that all Muslim men are dominant over their wife's.

[Blakhitman]

You took my comment out of context. You made an assumption which didn't make sense to me, and I countered it with what I inferred from my observations. Can you now explain why you assume that women feel more equal if they were covered from head to toe while their husbands walked around in very Westernized clothing?

Because just as you assumed that the women do not feel equal, then I can assume that the women do not feel that, rather they like wearing it and will not feel equal if they are not free to wear what they like.

lol what I meant was if they were forced to NOT wear it, then they would feel like they were treated less equally to those that wear what they like without question (didn't specifically mean, male-female equality thingy).

About the male dominance thing, come on, really, you're going to base your argument that Islam treats women unfairly on this one instance which you saw?

Maybe they were having an argument and he didn't want to confront her for the rest of the walk? Have you considered a reason for this behaviour? Furthermore, even if he was trying to prove his dominance, surely you can't say ALL muslim men do this?

EDIT: quote stuffing up on me :\


mod edit: fixed it for you... I think. wtf did you do lol

[ninwa]

Wtf? When did I say that one observation (btw, I've seen this several times) was proof that all Muslim men treat their women this way?! Didn't I recently mention my Muslim friend whose liberal father lets them make a choice?? Stop putting words in my mouth. I used my experiences to back up my assumption that the wearing of the burqa shows inequality in the relationship. That's all.

The argument explanation is plausible. Perhaps in all those instances the couple had just had an argument. Perhaps not. Geez.

[QuantumJG]

Oops sorry didn't see your post Souljette.

Yes, i said it was oppression because these women choose to wear the niqab and Someone is forcing her to take it off. Can you imagine the devastation that she will feel?
Obviously you won't fully understand, but there are those who have spiritual/religious connection to it.

Of course there's a religious connection to it - it stems from the Quran doesn't it?

A personal question which you don't have to answer (as I mentioned none of my female Muslim friends have chosen to wear any sort of covering so I only have their viewpoints): do you wear some sort of covering? What is your spiritual/religious connection to it? Why do you wear it? (I'm assuming you've made the choice to, rather than just following in your family's traditions.)

For the record I don't think France is doing the right thing. I do think it is a symbol of oppression, but I think there are better ways of going around it than by using brute force legislation to force women not to wear it, and I think it'll do more harm than good. Although it is somewhat understandable considering France's historical fear of any religion and any overt expressions of affiliation to any sort of group, religious or otherwise.

Wearing a head-to-toe covering while your husband walks alongside you in t-shirt and thongs (which I've unfortunately seen too many times at shopping centres etc.) makes you feel equal? Seriously?

Why not?
i don't believe equality is achieved through dress code. It is the treatment that makes a difference.

Why? Because according to my friend, "it's the 21st century and I am an equal to the man next to me and I am going to show that".

-This was pretty disturbing, especially from a Muslim perspective. Does it take you for you to be uncovered to show your equal to man?

I assume you mean equality comes from how people are treated, not what they wear. Why, then, is the Quran interpreted in such a way as to state that women must dress so conservatively but men may wear shorts (revealing legs), t-shirts (revealing arms) and no head coverings (revealing hair)?
How is that not unequal treatment? How is a woman wearing a burqa showing that she is equal to man?

I can see you are trying to fight for these women's liberties, yet they decide to remain blind (through decision or otherwise).

I don't like the whole religious practice full stop, Religion is the biggest source of inequality globally. Now think about it people are more inferior to another because of their religion. My stance on whether god exists is that I have no proof to say whether 'he' does or not. I don't personally see one religion to have more merit than the other and even though I don't like this whole religion pigeon-holling, I believe that my decision doesn't have to apply to everyone.

Having said that, this notion of what religion you choose decides how much of your body can be exposed compared to say a male is just plain stupid.

Anyway I want to finish this 'reply' with this particular quote:

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety".

[Souljette_93]

Firstly, I believe I did answer your questions

I'm sure you would choose to wear it, it's what you've known all your life. But let me ask you a personal question, and you can choose not to answer it if you wish, that's fine, I more than understand. What do you honestly think your parents and family would do if you chose to go out in public without the niqab on? And, now tell me, if you weren't so strong in your convictions

I'm not Niqaabi btw. Who Knows.

, and thought that the niqab was pointless (hypothetically), would the reaction of your family influence your decision to continue wearing it? Perhaps you might even go up and ask them hypothetically how they'd react?

No.
Do you believe that every/most Muslim family believes that their daughters must wear the Niqaab? In Fact, A lot of Muslims parents just adhere to the normal Hijab that women wear.

If you honestly think this isn't a massive problem, then this debate cannot have an agreed foundation upon which to stand, because at this point, you're simply denying fact.

At what part of my Posts have i denied anything? i said;

Who said it didn't exist? Yes it is possible to find situations such as these and nobody said it was correct. We don't approve of these things since not every one agree that it is compulsory to wear it

Haven't completely looked at the sites you have shown, but just skimming through it- Look, in Islam no body is Allowed to take the law into their own hands. It Must be done properly through the courts- where it is solely based on the Quran, Although what they did is reprehensible and unacceptable under Islam.



....And Ninwa,

I assume you mean equality comes from how people are treated, not what they wear. Why, then, is the Quran interpreted in such a way as to state that women must dress so conservatively but men may wear shorts (revealing legs), t-shirts (revealing arms) and no head coverings (revealing hair)?
How is that not unequal treatment? How is a woman wearing a burqa showing that she is equal to man?

The Quran lays out rules for a purpose. Man and Women are different. It doesn't tell the women to dress so she can look inferior to man.
It's rather to protect her Chastity from men and preserve her modesty. the Quran recognises the Men gets attracted to women-this is normal, and in order protect women from falling into an illicit relationship she should guard herself so she does not attract men. There is so much more to it, this is the simplest it can get.

As with your Q's, it can be interpreted many ways. She's showing she is an individual, governed By Allah ( Lord) not man. And so forth..

A personal question which you don't have to answer (as I mentioned none of my female Muslim friends have chosen to wear any sort of covering so I only have their viewpoints): do you wear some sort of covering? What is your spiritual/religious connection to it? Why do you wear it? (I'm assuming you've made the choice to, rather than just following in your family's traditions.)

Yes i made my choice. In my faith, we have certain guidelines/conditions on how to dress- and i dress accordingly. Well, i love my faith and how can i love something and not adhere to?  I know my way of life is not causing me to be inferior to anybody and i certainly know i am equal individual ( Man/female) simply because my religion rules it so.



Regards,
Souljette