Should France ban the veil?

[Blakhitman]

Wtf? When did I say that one observation (btw, I've seen this several times) was proof that all Muslim men treat their women this way?! Didn't I recently mention my Muslim friend whose liberal father lets them make a choice?? Stop putting words in my mouth. I used my experiences to back up my assumption that the wearing of the burqa shows inequality in the relationship. That's all.

The argument explanation is plausible. Perhaps in all those instances the couple had just had an argument. Perhaps not. Geez.

I reread what I typed, and I admit, I was a bit unfair, I'm sorry, and TBH i haven't exactly read every post thus far...

anyway I don't like arguing (debating?)...so I think I'm gonna back off this discussion!

[enwiabe]

Souljette, I think you're taking the questions I've asked you and avoided them on the basis of mistaken terminology. Re-answer them with the garment that you wear? Burqa? Hijab etc. You said they "simply adhere to the hijab". Well, what if the daughter didn't want to wear the hijab?

You then say that the law isn't supposed to be taken into their own hands, but the link to the article in Basra says that it was court-sanctioned... And even if you can make the argument that it's reprehensible under Islam, I'm not saying that Islam is the problem, I'm saying that it's Islamic men exploiting the religion to abuse women. You can't say "oh but the quran condemns it" and think that that makes the problem go away. The problem exists whether the Quran condemns it or not.

This is exactly the problem. The men ARE taking the law into their own hands. You, a relatively reasonable person, obviously will say that you think it is wrong for htem to do what they do. But every year 5,000 women are not subjected to that same reasonableness.

The problem exists. You cannot deny that every year thousands of women are murdered, and tens of thousands more beaten, simply for not wearing the hijab/niqab/burqa.

Sooner or later, I really hope you realise that there are misogynistic men who are subjugating the women of Islam, in the name of Islam, and are creating a horrific gender inequality. It's up to the women of Islam, ultimately, to start doing something about it. And I wish all those women fighting the good fight good luck. They're going to need it.

[superflya]

^^ u just wouldnt understand, hence all this is pointless.

[enwiabe]

That is an extremely empty statement, and ultimately reflects your own inability to acknowledge basic facts. 5,000 women are murdered each year for not wearing the hijab. It's the ugly truth, and something needs to be done about it.

[Souljette_93]

Souljette, I think you're taking the questions I've asked you and avoided them on the basis of mistaken terminology. Re-answer them with the garment that you wear? Burqa? Hijab etc. You said they "simply adhere to the hijab". Well, what if the daughter didn't want to wear the hijab?

You then say that the law isn't supposed to be taken into their own hands, but the link to the article in Basra says that it was court-sanctioned... And even if you can make the argument that it's reprehensible under Islam, I'm not saying that Islam is the problem, I'm saying that it's Islamic men exploiting the religion to abuse women. You can't say "oh but the quran condemns it" and think that that makes the problem go away. The problem exists whether the Quran condemns it or not.

This is exactly the problem. The men ARE taking the law into their own hands. You, a relatively reasonable person, obviously will say that you think it is wrong for htem to do what they do. But every year 5,000 women are not subjected to that same reasonableness.

The problem exists. You cannot deny that every year thousands of women are murdered, and tens of thousands more beaten, simply for not wearing the hijab/niqab/burqa.

Sooner or later, I really hope you realise that there are misogynistic men who are subjugating the women of Islam, in the name of Islam, and are creating a horrific gender inequality. It's up to the women of Islam, ultimately, to start doing something about it. And I wish all those women fighting the good fight good luck. They're going to need it.

I wear the hijab. And for the daughter that doesn't, should be encouraged, and if she still refuses, then it' s up to her & she is accountable for her own actions.
Can you please quote where it had said it was court-sanctioned? i can't seem to find it.
I am aware that people do things in the name of Islam that are wrong. Some are very wrong. But that comes down to the person-Not Islam.
You seem to have the notion that i deny things which i said i don't deny. It is present, how much of it Only God knows.

Souljette

[ninwa]

^^ u just wouldnt understand, hence all this is pointless.

dude if you don't care

gg who cares.

then why do you keep coming back to this thread and making pointless posts

[enwiabe]

What does "then it's up to her and she is accountable for her own actions" mean? That's a very loaded statement. Are you saying that the honour killing is then permissible? How is being punished for not wearing a hijab acceptable? That is a gross violation of human rights.

Hmm, I was under the impression from my first read that the police had done it. My mistake, they were investigating it. But that still doesn't make the problem go away...

And you deny that the problem is endemic to the Islamic community. You deny that we should be taking preventive steps, but rather handle it case by case. Somehow, I think there's merit to preventing 5000+ deaths each year. Somehow, I think there's some merit to lifting a whole swathe (millions) of women out of a darkness that engulfs their lives.

If you acknowledge the problem, why are you so unwilling to solve it? This goes back to your first sentence, "she is accountable for her actions" is a very ominous statement. I hope you do not mean that she deserves to be beaten, or persecuted, or worse, murdered, for it.

[Souljette_93]

What does "then it's up to her and she is accountable for her own actions" mean? That's a very loaded statement. Are you saying that the honour killing is then permissible? How is being punished for not wearing a hijab acceptable? That is a gross violation of human rights.

Hmm, I was under the impression from my first read that the police had done it. My mistake, they were investigating it. But that still doesn't make the problem go away...

And you deny that the problem is endemic to the Islamic community. You deny that we should be taking preventive steps, but rather handle it case by case. Somehow, I think there's merit to preventing 5000+ deaths each year. Somehow, I think there's some merit to lifting a whole swathe (millions) of women out of a darkness that engulfs their lives.

If you acknowledge the problem, why are you so unwilling to solve it? This goes back to your first sentence, "she is accountable for her actions" is a very ominous statement. I hope you do not mean that she deserves to be beaten, or persecuted, or worse, murdered, for it.

You Misunderstood me. Perhaps it was me who should have made it clear.
When i say "she's accountable for her own actions' (In our faith,)i mean that on the Day of Judgement, as everybody will be accounted for their deeds, she will be accounted for hers as well. It's a common statement that we use and that is it's implied meaning.

i didn't mean/realise what you have thought. And obviously i wouldn't, would it not have contradicted what i've been saying?

Guide me to where i have denied the problem is endemic to the Islamic community. Who said i was unwilling to solve the problem? My sisters in faith are always in my prayers.


Souljette

[kakar0t]

And you deny that the problem is endemic to the Islamic community. You deny that we should be taking preventive steps, but rather handle it case by case. Somehow, I think there's merit to preventing 5000+ deaths each year. Somehow, I think there's some merit to lifting a whole swathe (millions) of women out of a darkness that engulfs their lives.

Very strong emotive language. If wearing a veil/hijab leads to violence... there is a fundamental flaw within that society, not islam. The maximum extent of islam's place in that issue would be that the example culture/place has a flawed interpretation of it. Many of my friends and their female family members wear hijabs and I am yet to see one that is a depressed victim of violence.

[enwiabe]

Souljette, you wrote:

"And at most times, Husbands do not force their wives to cover-up fully, France's claim is wrong, if they have actually entered the home of these Niqaabi women, they would know it was done by their own choice."

That is clearly at odds with what you're saying now... And to be perfectly honest, I'm glad you have revised your position. It shows you're thinking for yourself I cannot hope to change your mind and impose my view on you, that would be oh-so-wrong, but I do hope that I have encouraged you to approach the issue from more angles.

[enwiabe]

And you deny that the problem is endemic to the Islamic community. You deny that we should be taking preventive steps, but rather handle it case by case. Somehow, I think there's merit to preventing 5000+ deaths each year. Somehow, I think there's some merit to lifting a whole swathe (millions) of women out of a darkness that engulfs their lives.

Very strong emotive language. If wearing a veil/hijab leads to violence... there is a fundamental flaw within that society, not islam. The maximum extent of islam's place in that issue would be that the example culture/place has a flawed interpretation of it. Many of my friends and their female family members wear hijabs and I am yet to see one that is a depressed victim of violence.

I never said the problem was with Islam, but rather Islamic men exploiting Islam. And you're exactly right. There are a great deal many societies that follow Islam who have an extremely warped interpretation of Islamic justice, and French society is one of those. I have already acknowledged in a previous post that the problem is nowhere near as prevalent in Australia, where the Islamic community has integrated admirably.

But just because the problem is not around you, does not mean the problem does not exist elsewhere...

[Souljette_93]

Souljette, you wrote:

"And at most times, Husbands do not force their wives to cover-up fully, France's claim is wrong, if they have actually entered the home of these Niqaabi women, they would know it was done by their own choice."

Yes i have said that. I still believe its true. Many women i know and met are all wearing it from there own choice.


Souljette

[enwiabe]

But before you said "they know it was done by their own choice".

You were certainly more definite before. Certainly you must realise now that the problem is larger and more widespread than you had previously thought?

[Souljette_93]

But before you said "they know it was done by their own choice".

You were certainly more definite before. Certainly you must realise now that the problem is larger and more widespread than you had previously thought?

Yes i do.
When i had mentioned that statement, i was referring to those who were genuinely wearing from their own choice. ( So not to claim that their husbands forced them..etc,) just as there are those who are forced, there are also those who aren't.

Souljette

[enwiabe]

I don't disagree that there are those who are not forced, but to my mind, the prevalence of women who are forced, and are subjugated is a worrying problem. And whilst the ban is not perfect, it's the one which reduces the most harm. And is certainly a better alternative to doing nothing. I'd more than happily get behind a better alternative solution, if such a one existed. But I am yet to see one.