Should France ban the veil?

[naved_s9994]

Again you're not seeing my point! How do you know that according to Islamic belief it is not specifically mandated by G-d himself (for whatever unfathomable reason best left to Himself) that women cover their face and men don't?!?

"And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, (with their Khimar) and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified, or the children who have not reached puberty. They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies. All of you shall repent to GOD, O you believers, that you may succeed." 24:31

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[/b]Notice also the expression in 24:31,

"They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary."

This expression may sound vague to many because they have not understood the mercy of God. Again God here used this very general term to give us the freedom to decide according to our own circumstances the definition of "What is necessary".

It is not up to a scholar or to any particular person to define this term. God wants to leave it personal for every woman and no one can take it away from her. Women who follow the basic rule number one i.e. righteousness, will have no problem making the right decision to reveal only which is necessary.[/b]

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THE WORD "HIJAB" in the QURAN

"Hijab" is the term used by many Muslims women to describe their head cover that may or may not include covering their face except their eyes, and sometimes covering also one eye. The Arabic word "Hijab" can be translated into veil or yashmak. Other meanings for the word "Hijab" include, screen, cover(ing), mantle, curtain, drapes, partition, division, divider.

Can we find the word "Hijab" in the Quran??

The word "Hijab" appeared in the Quran 7 times, five of them as "Hijab" and two times as "Hijaban," these are 7:46, 33:53, 38:32, 41:5, 42:51, 17:45 & 19:17.

None of these "Hijab" words are used in the Quran in reference to what the traditional Muslims call today (Hijab) as a dress code for the Muslim woman.

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In 24:31 God is asking the women to use their cover (khimar)( being a dress, a coat, a shawl, a shirt, a blouse, a tie, a scarf . . . etc.) to cover their bosoms, not their heads or their hairs. If God so willed to order the women to cover their heads or their hair, nothing would have prevented Him from doing so. GOD does not run out of words. GOD does not forget. God did not order the women to cover their heads or their hair.

Yeah, it's Yahoo answers i.e. not the most reliable resource out there, but I bet this person knows more about Islam than any of us.

Ninwa, thats amazing use of the net

[ninwa]

Need more?

Again you're not seeing my point! How do you know that according to Islamic belief it is not specifically mandated by G-d himself (for whatever unfathomable reason best left to Himself) that women cover their face and men don't?!?

However, The Quran does not specifically mention the Burqa or tell women to wear such extremely confining clothes. Instead, it instructs men and women to dress and behave modestly in society (24:31), which the Ulama or “Scholars” do agree upon. Modern day Muslims base their authority regarding the Burqa on the Hadith or collected traditions of life in the days of Prophet Muhammad. It is important to note here that these “collected traditions” have no place in Islam

[ninwa]

Ninwa, thats amazing use of the net

LOL. Yahoo answers is the best invention since sliced bread and Google

[Yitzi_K]

Need more?

Again you're not seeing my point! How do you know that according to Islamic belief it is not specifically mandated by G-d himself (for whatever unfathomable reason best left to Himself) that women cover their face and men don't?!?

However, The Quran does not specifically mention the Burqa or tell women to wear such extremely confining clothes. Instead, it instructs men and women to dress and behave modestly in society (24:31), which the Ulama or “Scholars” do agree upon. Modern day Muslims base their authority regarding the Burqa on the Hadith or collected traditions of life in the days of Prophet Muhammad. It is important to note here that these “collected traditions” have no place in Islam

Clearly this is an opinion, not shared by all Muslims.

[enwiabe]

I am comforted by the shift to secularism. Because each day, more and more people come to this realisation that religion is of the self, and not something to force upon others. Religion is what you believe, and if you truly loved your children, you'd let them decide for themselves and love them all the same.

But ultimately, as I harken back to my previous post, many of us are still so insecure about our place in the universe, that religion is all they have to cling to in the desperate scramble for answers... and when that insecurity is exposed, that is when the abuses happen.

On that, we'll have to agree to disagree, because you will never be able to convince me that my religious beliefs are incorrect, and I imagine neither I yours. It appears that that is the crux of this debate, whether or not we allow G-d to be the moral arbiter. That being the case, it seems somewhat pointless to continue this argument, unless we go out on a tangent and first establish whether G-d himself is real or not. That's not something I'm averse to by the way, but it would require a separate, probably much longer discussion.

- God is sexist in forcing the burqa on women only

I have to wonder how you can say that. Assuming we are labouring under the assumption that G-d exists, He, being the supreme being, would have invented morals and ethics, and therefore is the One to decide what is sexist and what isn't.

Exactly, so choose option b). Man is sexist

[ninwa]

Clearly this is an opinion, not shared by all Muslims.

Are you actually serious?
Did you not read the DIRECT QUOTE from the Quran?

[Cthulhu]

[TrueLight]

and once again a nice big happy family lol

so enwiabe has his beliefs, yitzi has his beliefs, the muslims that wear a burqa have their beliefs, the muslims that wear a hijab have their beliefs and thats the end......

[Yitzi_K]

Clearly this is an opinion, not shared by all Muslims.

Are you actually serious?
Did you not read the DIRECT QUOTE from the Quran?

I did. Like you said, it's open to interpretation. Obviously some would interpret it different to others. I am in no position to decide which is right, and neither are you, or the person who wrote that on Yahoo answers, or anyone for that matter, so therefore, let each to his own. By which I mean there is no need to ban it.

[m@tty]

for whatever unfathomable reason best left to Himself

That is exactly how these atrocities are committed. "Because god said so". Seriously. That is, exactly what I was talking about. Whenever our beliefs are threatened, we say "IT'S FOR THE GREATER GOOD! GOD SAID SO!"

Sigh. I wish people would see that for what it is, a weak copout to excuse the evils of man.

What your God says must be ingrained into your logic process. You must trust what He says; His word trumps your own reasoning skills.


Ninwa, here is another direct quote from the Quran:

Another verse in the Quran is translated as: "And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their beauty except what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs), and not to display their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule (slaves), or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent, and not to strike their feet (on the ground) so as to make known what they hide of their adornments. And turn in repentance to Allah together, O you the faithful, in order that you are successful"

There is much interpretation to be made, and according to your understanding you must be directed. Also, the meaning lost in translation may cause further disparity between sects of the faith.

[naved_s9994]

and once again a nice big happy family lol

so enwiabe has his beliefs, yitzi has his beliefs, the muslims that wear a burqa have their beliefs, the muslims that wear a hijab have their beliefs and thats the end......

Lol doubt it...
Its getting more intense, and interesting by each post.

[Yitzi_K]

Exactly, so choose option b). Man is sexist

I'm pretty sure we were discussing that 4 pages ago, so we appear to going in circles. Lets just call it quits. 

[ninwa]

I did. Like you said, it's open to interpretation. Obviously some would interpret it different to others. I am in no position to decide which is right, and neither are you, or the person who wrote that on Yahoo answers, or anyone for that matter, so therefore, let each to his own. By which I mean there is no need to ban it.

Sigh.

You seem to selectively forget what you yourself wrote.

Again you're not seeing my point! How do you know that according to Islamic belief it is not specifically mandated by G-d himself (for whatever unfathomable reason best left to Himself) that women cover their face and men don't?!?

Et voila. It's not specifically mandated. As you said, it is open to interpretation. My point.

[TrueLight]

and once again a nice big happy family lol

so enwiabe has his beliefs, yitzi has his beliefs, the muslims that wear a burqa have their beliefs, the muslims that wear a hijab have their beliefs and thats the end......

Lol doubt it...
Its getting more intense, and interesting by each post.

*tell me about it*

[ninwa]

Ninwa, here is another direct quote from the Quran:

Another verse in the Quran is translated as: "And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their beauty except what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs), and not to display their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule (slaves), or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent, and not to strike their feet (on the ground) so as to make known what they hide of their adornments. And turn in repentance to Allah together, O you the faithful, in order that you are successful"

There is much interpretation to be made, and according to your understanding you must be directed. Also, the meaning lost in translation may cause further disparity between sects of the faith.

Ahhhhhh that was exactly my point! It's not specifically mandated!! I know it's open to interpretation...