Should France ban the veil?

[enwiabe]

So you're saying that based on whichever god you believe in, you can do whatever you like to OTHER PEOPLE, so long as god says it's ok?

Exactly. Based on the assumption that G-d really, truly did speak to you, you can do whatever He tells you to do. Now since no one alive has ever heard the voice of G-d, no one can use that as an excuse. But if G-d genuinely did tell me what to do, I would do it, no questions asked. (a la Abraham, Isaac and the sacrifice).

You appear to keep forgetting that in my belief and that of most religions, G-d is a supreme being. Meaning, He can do whatever He pleases, and He can instruct man to do whatever He pleases. He rules, owns and created the world and everything and everyone in it, therefore He can do to the world and to everyone in it whatever he likes, whether YOU like it or not.

If that smiting people with thunderbolts, or telling women to cover their faces, so be it. It's His choice to make, not yours.

People say "god said I could do it" without actually hearing god. They pick and choose whichever part of the bible they subscribe to that they think says it's ok and say "LOOK HERE!!!"

..

Disgusting.

[ninwa]

That quote appears to imply that there ARE other sources, merely that the Quran is the overriding one.

Yes, there are three other sources, all of which expressly discourage "arbitrary opinion" and emphasise the importance of relying on primary sources. Read the rest of the post, please.

It's not specifically mandated.

It's not specifically mandated!!

How is this not absolute?

How is what not absolute? =\

I read through a few internet sites on this issue, not merely this passage. I quoted this passage because it was the only one discussed regarding the issue of wearing coverings for women on every site I went onto. It's not impossible, but surely you would agree that it is very likely that the top 8 results for "does the Quran specifically mention the burqa" can't all be wrong.

Based on that very superficial knowledge, I made a logical assumption that no, it is not a specific mandate but is rather open to interpretation.

Yes, I am very absolute about the lack of specificity, in the passage which several sources state is the basis for the tradition of wearing some sort of head/body covering. If you disagree, tell me where in that passage does it explicitly mention a burqa, niqab, hijab or any sort of all-body covering.

Instead of blasting me for using internet sources, how about you find some for yourself and refute my points? I am sure my 15 or so minutes of research doesn't even begin to scratch the surface. What do you want me to do - go and find someone with a doctorate in Islamic studies?

It's so easy to sit back and criticize.

[m@tty]

Your judgement is absolute. But you realised this later.

An interpretation is not bending the meaning of something; it is what you genuinely understand it to mean.

Think of it like translating a passage from a foreign language. Different people read this other language to mean different things. Hence when one person translates it, the corresponding passage may be specific in some regard, but another may not. While the interpretation I'm talking about is not this extreme, it is not far off. Everyone has a different understanding of the English language; everyone interprets things differently. If in someone's interpretation something is stipulated, then to them it is stipulated. You can't tell them that they are wrong, there are similar biases in your own interpretation.

Bottom line: your interpretation is not necessarily the "correct" one.

Based on very superficial knowledge, I made a logical assumption.

Hmmm, that doesn't seem right. Read that back to yourself. Again.

While that may help you for this debate, you have absolutely no idea if there really is no mandate in the Quran. But, alas, you still go ahead and state: "It is not specifically mandated!!" And all on superficial knowledge! This is akin to the childish attitude, "It must be true; I read it on the Internet."

My point here is don't be absolute. You don't know that there is not a mandate in the Quran, and even if you did not find such a passage, does not mean that someone else will not. You are not an authority on this, and neither are the top 8 results of an internet search. You can't make a logical assumption and say that there is no textual base for someone's beliefs, based on the words of several anti-Burqa websites.

My sole purpose here has been to show that there is the possibility that there might in some small place in the Quran be some basis for this tradition. I don't know, and neither do you. So don't go out making absolute judgement.

[enwiabe]

Even if it's written in the Qu'ran, it's still sexist and downright insulting to women.

Either god is sexist, or man is sexist. Either way, that shit has to stop.

[ninwa]

My point here is don't be absolute. You don't know that there is not a mandate in the Quran, and even if you did not find such a passage, does not mean that someone else will not. You are not an authority on this, and neither are the top 8 results of an internet search. You can't make a logical assumption and say that there is no textual base for someone's beliefs, based on the words of several anti-Burqa websites.

My sole purpose here has been to show that there is the possibility that there might in some small place in the Quran be some basis for this tradition. I don't know, and neither do you. So don't go out making absolute judgement.

Very well. Please find information that contradicts what I said and I will happily apologise for being so absolute. Please show me where in the Quran it states, explicitly, that women must wear full-body coverings (i.e. the burqa, but I don't think the Quran ever uses the term burqa).

I'm perfectly happy to be set right, but instead of doing that, you both have just decided to attack the lack of knowledge I have about this.

Speck - log.


These (as well as the other bits I've quoted in previous posts) were the foundations for my assumption. I apologise if it's not a logical enough assumption for you.

Sorry for using the Internet, it is the only resource I have, time restraints considering. (I would like to add that I also found several slightly different translations of the verse in question, and all of them said pretty much the same thing. Obviously I can't read the Quran as it originally stood; the best any of us can hope for is an English translation. I was going to edit my post to add it, but someone had already replied to it.)

This is what I found about the issue:

What does Quran say about the Burqa?

First of all, it depends on which Islamic scholar you ask. They are all in disagreement as to what extend Quran advocates this. However, the Quran does urge men and women to dress and behave modestly in society. The Quran does not specifically mention the Burqa or tells women to wear such extremely confining clothes.

The clearest verse on the requirement of the hijab is surah 24:30-31.

...

According to Leila Ahmed, nowhere in the whole of the Qur'an is the term hijab applied to any woman other than the wives of MuhammadS.A.W..[9][11]

According to at least two authors, (Reza Aslam and Leila Ahmed) the stipulations of the hijab were originally meant only for Prophet Muhammad S.A.W.'s wives, and were intended to maintain their inviolability. This was because Prophet Muhammad S.A.W. conducted all religious and civic affairs in the mosque adjacent to his home:

^ there's your academics. Sorry I can't contact them directly and ask for their actual views, but there are references in the Wikipedia entry.

Many Muslims believe that the Islamic holy book, the Qur'an, and the collected traditions of the life of Muhammed, or hadith, require both men and women to dress and behave modestly in public. However, this requirement, called hijab, has been interpreted in many different ways by Islamic scholars (ulema) and Muslim communities (see Women and Islam); the burqa is not specifically mentioned in the Quran.

The common, misinformed perception is that Muslim women mostly wear the burqa to express their religious devotion.

Frankly, I’ve lived on both sides of this debate, and I would like to put the record straight once and for all as I was instructed during my time in a moderately strict Islamic society - to wear a burqa, hijab or headscarf during daily life is not prescribed specifically anywhere in the Koran – it is not wajib (mandatory and prescribed by the Koran), but only sunat (recommended culturally).

http://quran-hadith-studies.suite101.com/article.cfm/what_is_hijab
Quotes four passages on this topic. The first two are from the Quran and do not explicitly mention a covering for the body. The second two are from the Hadith, i.e. not the Quran. You will notice that those two passages do explicitly mention coverings.

[Yitzi_K]

Even if it's written in the Qu'ran, it's still sexist and downright insulting to women.

Either god is sexist, or man is sexist. Either way, that shit has to stop.

Ok, so you think G-d is sexist. But seeing as G-d is THE moral authority, who judges everyone exactly according to their merits, who is the very definition of justice and fairness, and who knows exactly what is best for each individual person, I'm not going to argue.

[Yitzi_K]

@ Ninwa  - you can keep bringing quote after quote, but you still cannot prove that it is not the belief of some Muslims that it IS mandatory. Some may say it isn't, and they are free not to wear it, but to those who say it is, and there are such people, they should be given the freedom to wear it.

Clearly there are differences of opinions over the burqa, and it is not for us to say which is right, but we must respect the freedom of those who believe it is a religious obligation.

Here's a quote for you:

(CNN) -- I wear the burqa for the simple reason that I am a Muslim and the Koran says that I must wear the full veil in order to be modest.

This woman clearly believes that the Koran itself mandates that she does have to wear it. In fact I recommend you read the whole article
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/02/04/france.burqa.ban/index.html

[ninwa]

Thank you for finally bringing evidence into it and not merely making hypocritical attacks. I now see that some choose to view the Quran differently from others.

Freedom to follow religious obligation is obviously very important, but where do you draw the line? Do you even draw a line? What about practices like female genital mutilation, which some can claim is part of their religious freedom? Do you allow that too?

[enwiabe]

Even if it's written in the Qu'ran, it's still sexist and downright insulting to women.

Either god is sexist, or man is sexist. Either way, that shit has to stop.

Ok, so you think G-d is sexist. But seeing as G-d is THE moral authority, who judges everyone exactly according to their merits, who is the very definition of justice and fairness, and who knows exactly what is best for each individual person, I'm not going to argue.

This sums up what is inherently wrong with man and religion; the forfeiture of critical thought in lieu of "because god said so".

[Cthulhu]

I've been waiting ages to use this

[ninwa]

Ok, so you think G-d is sexist. But seeing as G-d is THE moral authority, who judges everyone exactly according to their merits, who is the very definition of justice and fairness, and who knows exactly what is best for each individual person, I'm not going to argue.

Pshht god's clearly wrong. It's obvious women are better/smarter than men. Diamonds are a girls best friend whereas mans best friend is a dog.

[Cthulhu]

Ok, so you think G-d is sexist. But seeing as G-d is THE moral authority, who judges everyone exactly according to their merits, who is the very definition of justice and fairness, and who knows exactly what is best for each individual person, I'm not going to argue.

Pshht god's clearly wrong. It's obvious women are better/smarter than men. Diamonds are a girls best friend whereas mans best friend is a dog.

But diamonds take millions of years and hundreds of pounds of pressure to form and many lives are lost trying to get these diamonds each year. Dogs also took millions of years to form but dogs are easy to make.

My point here is that if women were smart they'd get their own damn diamonds from their own damn mines >:[

[Yitzi_K]

Even if it's written in the Qu'ran, it's still sexist and downright insulting to women.

Either god is sexist, or man is sexist. Either way, that shit has to stop.

Ok, so you think G-d is sexist. But seeing as G-d is THE moral authority, who judges everyone exactly according to their merits, who is the very definition of justice and fairness, and who knows exactly what is best for each individual person, I'm not going to argue.

This sums up what is inherently wrong with man and religion; the forfeiture of critical thought in lieu of "because god said so".

But what if G-d really did say so? Are we not to listen to Him?

[ninwa]

But diamonds take millions of years and hundreds of pounds of pressure to form and many lives are lost trying to get these diamonds each year. Dogs also took millions of years to form but dogs are easy to make.

My point here is that if women were smart they'd get their own damn diamonds from their own damn mines >:[

So go make yourself a dog >:[

[Cthulhu]

Even if it's written in the Qu'ran, it's still sexist and downright insulting to women.

Either god is sexist, or man is sexist. Either way, that shit has to stop.

Ok, so you think G-d is sexist. But seeing as G-d is THE moral authority, who judges everyone exactly according to their merits, who is the very definition of justice and fairness, and who knows exactly what is best for each individual person, I'm not going to argue.

This sums up what is inherently wrong with man and religion; the forfeiture of critical thought in lieu of "because god said so".

But what if G-d really did say so? Are we not to listen to Him?

But how do we know god really did say so? Because some random on the street said he did?