Should France ban the veil?

[TrueLight]

so thousands are killed because women wear or dont wear burqas?
theres laws against murder

[Collin Li]

Just because some guy makes a comment saying burqas are good because they curb their sexual appetite, it doesn't mean that this man is oppressing all women who are wearing burqas. That is his opinion about burqas, and it is very possible that women are choosing to wear burqas for completely unrelated reasons to nutjobs like that.

If we take that line of thought, I could claim that school uniforms are necessary because they curb my sexual appetite against otherwise-dressed underage girls - should we ban school uniforms because of a random nutjob's thoughts?

[enwiabe]

Just because some guy makes a comment saying burqas are good because they curb their sexual appetite, it doesn't mean that this man is oppressing all women who are wearing burqas. That is his opinion about burqas, and it is very possible that women are choosing to wear burqas for completely unrelated reasons to nutjobs like that.

If we take that line of thought, I could claim that school uniforms are necessary because they curb my sexual appetite against otherwise-dressed underage girls - should we ban school uniforms because of a random nutjob's thoughts?

You... do... realise that it's not some 'random nutjob', yes? And that this is the view of Islamic society, and by that I mean the vast majority of Islamic men. Clearly your analogy is stupid, because your "reason" for liking school uniforms is ulterior to the actual reason for school uniforms. If the burqa was mandated in Victoria as school uniform in order to prevent schoolgirls from "making guys give into their sexual temptation"... You can't even begin to imagine the backlash...

Curbing sexual appetite is the sole reason for the burqa. That's why it was invented all those years ago, and that's the reason it's there now. The fact that there is no male equivalent shows that it is a disgusting tool used to subjugate women.

[enwiabe]

It's pretty clear that you haven't read the other posts. Or you have but you haven't understood them. It has been painstakingly explained several times about how most women are forced into wearing it, many are brainwashed and thousands are killed over it.

Please actually post substantive arguments. These questions have already been answered. If you disagree with those answers, then go ahead, but can you try actually threading together a paragraph or two on why you think it's wrong?

okay so you think thats its wrong and they are oppressed etc, so you think the government should ban them i get that
and my position is that the government should not ban them because i think its up to them if they want to stand against it, not someone else imposing this on others...
all the posts ive made in this topic i stand by
so i have my belief and you have yours

How can they stand against it, though? If they protest, they get killed or beaten like the other 5,000 women that try each yera. Islamic society is a patriarchy. They're so entrenched in their ways that forcing any sort of change from the inside would likely take a hundred years at the least. And that's if they don't get killed for daring to challenge the religion as they currently are. Thankfully, French society won't wait that long while innocent women suffer...

[enwiabe]

so thousands are killed because women wear or dont wear burqas?
theres laws against murder

Tell that to the women who are already dead. I'm sure they'll be most comforted about you pontificating about sentencing their husbands, fathers and brothers, while they lie dead in the ground. Meanwhile, their sisters face the same tyranny. Isn't it time we started preventing these deaths?

[Collin Li]

I'm not sure about the religious origins. But you have to remember that other religions started off on very perverse moral grounds compared to our standards today (many examples, can't think of the best but how is Noah's Ark - a form of genocide - acceptable in today's society?)

They can form and adopt new meanings, and hence it is impossible to judge accurately and for all about the burqa in modern society.

Secondly, how do you even begin to enforce this law? A French commission investigating options to enforce this law recommended banning burqa-donning women from using public transportation. The unintended consequences are obvious - if Muslim women are truly subjugated by their husbands, then they will be punished further by never being allowed to leave the house, or if so (in a burqa), they will not be able to access many of the city's services. And that will merely cover up the fact that there is male oppression, rather than solve it.

[enwiabe]

I'm not sure about the religious origins. But you have to remember that other religions started off on very perverse moral grounds compared to our standards today (many examples, can't think of the best but how is Noah's Ark - a form of genocide - acceptable in today's society?)

They can form and adopt new meanings, and hence it is impossible to judge accurately and for all about the burqa in modern society.

Secondly, how do you even begin to enforce this law? A French commission investigating options to enforce this law recommended banning burqa-donning women from using public transportation. The unintended consequences are obvious - if Muslim women are truly subjugated by their husbands, then they will be punished further by never being allowed to leave the house, or if so (in a burqa), they will not be able to access many of the city's services. And that will merely cover up the fact that there is male oppression, rather than solve it.

Are you kidding me? Noah's Ark was an act of god that never even happened. Science has already disproven that there could have been a flood lasting 40 days...

So using a fable as your example, not to mention that it's not an example of oppression by man, but by an all powerful being in the sky has absolutely no bearing on this debate whatsoever :-/

Secondly, it's perfectly clear that it hasn't formed a new meaning, hence why women get KILLED over it. But no, you're right, I'm sure they just choose to die, right?

And finally, that's exactly the god damn point. Do you think it's feasible that every single Muslim man in France can keep his wife and daughters at home for all time? Absolutely not. Doing this will force the debate on women's rights in Islamic society right out into the open. They will have to find a workaround to this, and whilst doing so, who knows what other progress might be made. Can you imagine a family functioning when between 1/4 and 3/4 of the family cannot leave the house? That situation could not possibly last. Once that wall is broken down, it will shake the patriarchy at its foundation. Only good can come from that.

[ninwa]

Belgium's lower house passes legislation to ban the burqa

Approval in the lower house was almost unanimous.

Like elsewhere in Europe, Belgium struggles with anxieties that visible signs of Islam erode national identity and that women in traditional conservative Islamic dress, such as the burqa, the chador and the niqab, signal a refusal to assimilate in western society.

The law's author, Daniel Bacquelaine, a Liberal, said a burqa is incompatible with basic security as everyone in public must be recognizable and clashes with the principles of an emancipated society that respects the rights of all.

[Collin Li]

The point is that ideals from religion change. I have conceded that Noah's Ark is not the best example, but the point remains standing that the origins of religious traditions may have dramatically different meanings in modern society. Noah's Ark is now symbolic, rather than historical. Genesis is arguably the same (especially amongst some Christians who believe in evolution).

Not at all - I never implied anywhere that they choose to die. Putting words in my mouth merely obsfucates your argument and diminishes your credibility.

That is one way to instigate change. Personally I prefer a more holistic, non-governmental method. I see change driven from society (bottom-up), not from government (top-down) - although I do respect the possibility of government-driven-by-society change. However, I see no need for it in this case. Your method risks short-term damage to the welfare of Muslim women.

Many of my Muslim friends claim that it is the wife/woman that drives the family unit. Granted, they live in a Westernised environment, but it grants me hope that social change is a stronger force than replacing religious oppression with government oppression (even if you believe it is oppression to achieve liberation).

[Collin Li]

Belgium's lower house passes legislation to ban the burqa

Approval in the lower house was almost unanimous.

Like elsewhere in Europe, Belgium struggles with anxieties that visible signs of Islam erode national identity and that women in traditional conservative Islamic dress, such as the burqa, the chador and the niqab, signal a refusal to assimilate in western society.

The law's author, Daniel Bacquelaine, a Liberal, said a burqa is incompatible with basic security as everyone in public must be recognizable and clashes with the principles of an emancipated society that respects the rights of all.

I like this argument the most. To me, this establishes a case for the ban, alongside with other kinds of anti-social dress code. But once again, practicality (the fuzzy area) and the slippery slope makes this an untenable and unattractive position to fight for.

[enwiabe]

Belgium's lower house passes legislation to ban the burqa

Approval in the lower house was almost unanimous.

Like elsewhere in Europe, Belgium struggles with anxieties that visible signs of Islam erode national identity and that women in traditional conservative Islamic dress, such as the burqa, the chador and the niqab, signal a refusal to assimilate in western society.

The law's author, Daniel Bacquelaine, a Liberal, said a burqa is incompatible with basic security as everyone in public must be recognizable and clashes with the principles of an emancipated society that respects the rights of all.

I like this argument the most. To me, this establishes a case for the ban, alongside with other kinds of anti-social dress code. But once again, practicality (the fuzzy area) and the slippery slope makes this an untenable and unattractive position to fight for.

The second half of that argument you bolded is exactly what I've been arguing this entire time. Glad to know my arguments made the case for you

[Collin Li]

Belgium's lower house passes legislation to ban the burqa

Approval in the lower house was almost unanimous.

Like elsewhere in Europe, Belgium struggles with anxieties that visible signs of Islam erode national identity and that women in traditional conservative Islamic dress, such as the burqa, the chador and the niqab, signal a refusal to assimilate in western society.

The law's author, Daniel Bacquelaine, a Liberal, said a burqa is incompatible with basic security as everyone in public must be recognizable and clashes with the principles of an emancipated society that respects the rights of all.

I like this argument the most. To me, this establishes a case for the ban, alongside with other kinds of anti-social dress code. But once again, practicality (the fuzzy area) and the slippery slope makes this an untenable and unattractive position to fight for.

The second half of that argument you bolded is exactly what I've been arguing this entire time. Glad to know my arguments made the case for you

I meant the first half (which is why I was talking about anti-social dress code). Fixed.

[enwiabe]

Ah, damn, and here I thought you were finally going to live up to your libertarian ideals of equality and liberty. I guess that's an "untenable and unattractive position to fight for", eh?

[ninwa]

That is one way to instigate change. Personally I prefer a more holistic, non-governmental method. I see change driven from society (bottom-up), not from government (top-down) - although I do respect the possibility of government-driven-by-society change. However, I see no need for it in this case. Your method risks short-term damage to the welfare of Muslim women.

Actually, I believe that's a large part of this (government driven by society):

More than half of voters in four other major European states back a push by France’s Nicolas Sarkozy to ban women from wearing the burka, according to an opinion poll for the Financial Times.

The poll shows some 70 per cent of respondents in France said they supported plans to forbid the wearing of the garment which covers the female body from head to toe. There was similar sentiment in Spain and Italy, where 65 per cent and 63 per cent respectively favoured a ban

The strength of feeling in the UK and Germany may seem particularly surprising. Britain has a strong liberal tradition that respects an individual’s right to full expression of religious views. But here, some 57 per cent of people still favoured a ban. In Germany, which is also reluctant to clamp down in minority rights, some 50 per cent favoured a ban.

[Glockmeister]

Of course, there's always the danger of tyranny by majority as well.