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May 18, 2025, 09:06:55 am

Author Topic: Should France ban the veil?  (Read 33344 times)  Share 

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enwiabe

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Re: Should France ban the veil?
« Reply #240 on: July 07, 2010, 01:26:00 am »
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It is evident that the nature of women is physiologically and psychologically different from that of men. Psychologically speaking, the woman is monogamous by her very nature. Furthermore, in all cultures, new and old, the headship of the family is normally man’s. One can imagine what would happen if the family had two or more heads. Furthermore, if the woman was married to more than one husband, which would be the father of her children?

Blatantly sexist, all of it. "The headship is the man's"

PATRIARCHY

Woman is NOT monogamous by her nature, this has been shown biologically and anthropologically.

If a man is married to multiple women, which would be the mother? That's right, all of them usually bear children for the man. Why not the reverse?

Hint: Blatant sexism.


Bohr

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Re: Should France ban the veil?
« Reply #241 on: July 07, 2010, 01:27:07 am »
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DNA TESTING. Perhaps your religion needs to undergo reformation the way Christianity and Judaism did.

Bohr

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Re: Should France ban the veil?
« Reply #242 on: July 07, 2010, 01:29:07 am »
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enwaibe: Woman is NOT monogamous by her nature, this has been shown biologically and anthropologically.

My point proven, we should allow polygamy and polyandry!

Abdi

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Re: Should France ban the veil?
« Reply #243 on: July 07, 2010, 01:29:36 am »
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DNA TESTING. Perhaps your religion needs to undergo reformation the way Christianity and Judaism did.

Islam does not need to undergo any sort of reformation whatsoever! unlike Christianity and juddasim who revise their holy scriptcures yearly :|........... our laws were intended not to change as God has all knowning all wise! :)

Abdi

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Re: Should France ban the veil?
« Reply #244 on: July 07, 2010, 01:31:15 am »
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If woman aren't Monogamous then Polygomy is not sexist in the least! :P

ninwa

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Re: Should France ban the veil?
« Reply #245 on: July 07, 2010, 02:31:28 am »
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I notice you have not bothered to address any of my points. Thank you then for your implicit agreement.

Please elaborate! :)
If you insist.

Note that points 1. and 2. have been taken from Halsbury's Laws of Australia.

1. The exercise of religion protected by s. 116 extends only to the performance of acts that are done in the practice of religion.
  • Argument: it is a cultural practice and not a religious one.

Assuming the High Court accepts that it is a religious practice:

2. The protection extended by s. 116 concentrates on freedom to believe, but freedom to act in accordance with religious beliefs is not subject to the same constitutional protection. Conduct in which a person engages in giving effect to his or her faith in the supernatural is religious, but that conduct will not be constitutionally protected from laws that do not discriminate against religion generally or against particular religions.

  • Argument: a ban on the wearing of the burqa does not discriminate against Islam generally, considering there is legislation providing for certain standards of dress in public (public indecency being the first that comes to mind).

3. The purpose of the legislation may be taken into account in determining whether it is a law prohibiting a religious practice.
Per Latham CJ(at 132) in [i]Adelaide Company of Jehovah's Witnesses Incorporated v Commonwealth ("Jehovah's Witnesses case")[/i] [1943] HCA 12.

In that case, a law forcibly dissolving a Jehovah's Witnessess group and preventing it from practising by seizing all its assets was ruled to be constitutionally valid, because its purpose was not to prevent the free exercise of the members' religion but rather to protect national security (it was wartime etc., see the AustLII link if you want the facts of the case).

3a. Jehovah's Witnesses also contained a test of proportionality: one's freedom of religion may be limited by "reasonable" or proportionate laws designed to protect a legitimate public interest.

The High Court said something along the lines of:
Taking into consideration the most likely intentions of the original framers of the constitution, it is highly unlikely that they would have considered making laws against polygamy or murder as infringing upon religion (even though some religions practice polygamy or human sacrifice). Those laws would still be regarded as secular laws, even if indirectly their effect was to prevent some religious practices.
It is therefore impossible that "the free exercise of religion" in s.116(c) meant an absolute right.

You may see this test applied again in [i]Kruger v Commonwealth ("Stolen Generations case")[/i] [1997] HCA 27. It is this case which really diminished the scope of s.116 by further re.

In the Stolen Generations case, the High Court reaffirmed that a law is only constitutionally invalid under s.116 if it has an ostensible purpose of inhibiting religious practice, rather than merely having the effect of doing so.

The purpose test is the current law, although the Court also acknowledged the necessity of a test of proportionality.

While Gaudron J argued that a law could breach s.116 if one of its purposes was to prohibit religion, she qualified that test with the following:
- The law is not constitutionally invalid if it is necessary to achieve some overriding public purpose or satisfy some social need.
- The law is also not constitutionally invalid if its specific purpose is unconnected with the freedom of religion.

  • Argument: it is quite easy to make a case that the purpose of the legislation is 1) for security issues (see numerous news articles about men wearing burqas robbing banks because they were able to hide weapons under the burqa); and 2) for equality issues. Clearly, 1) and 2) are legitimate public interests. 2) is also a social need.
  • Equally clearly, 1) and 2) are unconnected with the freedom of religion.
  • It may not even be inhibiting any religious practice, assuming the Court accepted the argument that it is rather a cultural practice (and there are plenty of religious scholars who agree that it is a cultural practice and who could be called upon to testify). Not to mention the large number of women who consider themselves Muslim and yet do not wear any sort of covering.
Even if you were trying to argue by Gaudron J's reasoning, and could show that one of the purposes of a law banning the burqa was indeed to prohibit religion, there is still that matter of proportionality - national and state security is surely a sufficient "overriding public purpose" while equality of the sexes is a significant social need.
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Yitzi_K

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Re: Should France ban the veil?
« Reply #246 on: July 07, 2010, 11:38:34 am »
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DNA TESTING. Perhaps your religion needs to undergo reformation the way Christianity and Judaism did.

Islam does not need to undergo any sort of reformation whatsoever! unlike Christianity and juddasim who revise their holy scriptcures yearly :|........... our laws were intended not to change as God has all knowning all wise! :)

Actually, orthodox Judaism doesn't change at all, it's still the exact same laws and scriptures since 2000 years before Islam.
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Bohr

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Re: Should France ban the veil?
« Reply #247 on: July 07, 2010, 02:52:54 pm »
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Should France ban motorcycle helmets? Muslim women angry about this law shoudl consider wearing motorcycle helmets. Problem solved!

Mao

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Re: Should France ban the veil?
« Reply #248 on: July 08, 2010, 02:14:44 am »
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DNA TESTING. Perhaps your religion needs to undergo reformation the way Christianity and Judaism did.

Islam does not need to undergo any sort of reformation whatsoever! unlike Christianity and juddasim who revise their holy scriptcures yearly :|........... our laws were intended not to change as God has all knowning all wise! :)

Actually, orthodox Judaism doesn't change at all, it's still the exact same laws and scriptures since 2000 years before Islam.

I want to see how this goes.
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fady_22

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Re: Should France ban the veil?
« Reply #249 on: July 08, 2010, 12:24:19 pm »
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I'm no expert on Judaism, but I have read that orthodox Judaism has indeed changed some of its practices, leading to the "modern-orthodoxy" group.

And don't tell me that you don't recognise them as Jews as well.
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Yitzi_K

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Re: Should France ban the veil?
« Reply #250 on: July 08, 2010, 03:09:22 pm »
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I'm no expert on Judaism, but I have read that orthodox Judaism has indeed changed some of its practices, leading to the "modern-orthodoxy" group.

And don't tell me that you don't recognise them as Jews as well.

Of course I recognise them as Jews. Anyone born to a Jewish mother is a Jew, regardless of their level of observance.

The book which codifies the entirety of Jewish law is the Shulchan Aruch. All orthodox Jews, be they ultra-orthodox or modern orthodox follow this code of the laws. There is not an orthodox rabbi in the world today who would argue with those laws. The only difference is the level of stringencies practiced in the application of the laws.
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fady_22

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Re: Should France ban the veil?
« Reply #251 on: July 08, 2010, 04:09:28 pm »
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I'm no expert on Judaism, but I have read that orthodox Judaism has indeed changed some of its practices, leading to the "modern-orthodoxy" group.

And don't tell me that you don't recognise them as Jews as well.

Of course I recognise them as Jews. Anyone born to a Jewish mother is a Jew, regardless of their level of observance.

The book which codifies the entirety of Jewish law is the Shulchan Aruch. All orthodox Jews, be they ultra-orthodox or modern orthodox follow this code of the laws. There is not an orthodox rabbi in the world today who would argue with those laws. The only difference is the level of stringencies practiced in the application of the laws.

So you do agree that the application and validity of these laws have changed over time? Because if you do then your argument on "fixed morals" on the atheism topic would fall to pieces.
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Yitzi_K

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Re: Should France ban the veil?
« Reply #252 on: July 08, 2010, 04:22:53 pm »
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No, I don't. Like I said, the Shulchan Aruch (circa 500 years ago) codifies all of Jewish law. All the laws written in there are based on the Talmud (circa 1600 years ago) which is in turn based on the Mishna (circa 2000 years ago) which is in turn based on the written and oral traditions taught to Moses at Mt Sinai (3322 years ago). In all that time, the laws have not changed one bit.

The application of these laws has somewhat evolved, but only in the sense that we now have to interpret laws given 3322 years ago in relation to new technologies such as electricity, IVF, organ transplants etc, which were obviously not around at the time. But when applying those laws to the new technologies, the Shulchan Aruch and other relevant texts are the basis for such applications.
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Re: Should France ban the veil?
« Reply #253 on: July 14, 2010, 08:02:00 am »
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Well, it's done. France has banned the veil.

I hope it doesn't happen in Australia, as some people are suggesting it might.

TrueLight

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Re: Should France ban the veil?
« Reply #254 on: September 21, 2010, 07:49:56 pm »
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hey guys

you might be interested that on sbs insight right now they are talking about this issue

they are getting fired up!

online
http://news.sbs.com.au/insight/episode/index/id/311#watchonline




« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 10:06:22 pm by TrueLight »
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