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May 20, 2025, 05:23:22 am

Author Topic: Should France ban the veil? [OFFTOPIC]  (Read 8051 times)  Share 

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Yitzi_K

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Re: Should France ban the veil? [OFFTOPIC]
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2010, 10:29:54 pm »
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There seems to be confusion; I am not saying that we should change any belief (laws are not beliefs), but rather change practices (such as wearing the burqa) to align with what is right in the eyes of people today.

Again, the word of God, one's faith, should not change. It is the practices that need changing. Wearing the burqa, in the context of this topic, is not a law anyway. It's a practice stemming from what is written in the Quran.

Why should practices change? Why is it that society is allowed to change as it pleases, and religion must always play catch up?

In Judaism we have a principle 'minhag Yisrael Torah hu' which roughly translates as 'practices of the [community] are law'. In other words, an established practice with a proper basis, cannot be changed.
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ninwa

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Re: Should France ban the veil? [OFFTOPIC]
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2010, 10:32:14 pm »
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Religion doesn't have to play catch up. But then it shouldn't complain when laws (which are often based on society's attitudes and therefore change according to society) are passed which are inconsistent with practices stemming from a society thousands of years old.
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Yitzi_K

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Re: Should France ban the veil? [OFFTOPIC]
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2010, 10:35:28 pm »
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Religion doesn't have to play catch up. But then it shouldn't complain when laws (which are often based on society's attitudes and therefore change according to society) are passed which are inconsistent with practices stemming from a society thousands of years old.

Fair enough, but it can and should complain if those laws being passed now have no purpose other than to prohibit the following of the laws passed then, if the community which follows those older laws are perfectly happy for them to continue.
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ninwa

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Re: Should France ban the veil? [OFFTOPIC]
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2010, 10:41:01 pm »
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That was the most confusing sentence ever but I think I understood what you're getting at? :P

That is by no means its sole purpose. As mentioned by several people before France has a deeply secularised society stemming from the French revolutions. So what about when the majority of the community is not perfectly happy for them to continue? Should they bend to the minority?
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Yitzi_K

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Re: Should France ban the veil? [OFFTOPIC]
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2010, 10:47:50 pm »
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That was the most confusing sentence ever but I think I understood what you're getting at? :P

That is by no means its sole purpose. As mentioned by several people before France has a deeply secularised society stemming from the French revolutions. So what about when the majority of the community is not perfectly happy for them to continue? Should they bend to the minority?

Sorry yeh it did come across kind of convoluted.

The 'majority of the community' don't have to abide by those laws do they? What's it to them what other people wear? It doesn't affect them at all. In fact, I'm sure many modes of dress are disliked by a majority of the community, but why on earth should we go around banning every little thing that the 'majority of the community' happens not to like? (Purely random example inspired by today's news): The majority of people don't like Justin Bieber. Why don't we ban him from performing in Australia?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 10:49:38 pm by Yitzi_K »
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ninwa

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Re: Should France ban the veil? [OFFTOPIC]
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2010, 11:24:39 pm »
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Because it's a far less superficial dislike than the one for Justin Bieber (lol) and stems from a complex history (of which I admit I know far too little still).

This is what I do know:

Have a look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La%C3%AFcit%C3%A9#France
Quote
Laïcité is currently a core concept in the French constitution, whose Article 1 formally states that France is a secular republic ("La France est une République indivisible, laïque, démocratique et sociale.") Many see being discreet with one's religion as a necessary part of being French. This has led to frequent divisions with non-Christian immigrants, especially with France's large Muslim population. A recent debate has been over whether any religious apparel or displays by individuals, such as the Islamic hijab, Sikh turban, (large) Christian crosses and Jewish Stars of David, should be banned from public schools. Such a ban came into effect in France in 2004, see French law on secularity and conspicuous religious symbols in schools.

In 2009 France launched a national debate on national identity - what it means to be French. A statistics company analysed the contributions on the specially set up website. One of the most frequently discussed issues they identified was the idea that to be French you must subscribe to the principles and values of French society, in particular the principles of liberty/equality/fraternity, human rights, and secularity. (I've attached it but unfortunately it's all in French)

For many French citizens the idea of secularism and of being discreet with one's religious practices goes to the very heart of being French. It is not merely an issue of "we don't like how they dress" or "it's oppression of women". It's far deeper than that.
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enwiabe

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Re: Should France ban the veil? [OFFTOPIC]
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2010, 11:26:07 pm »
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Yitzi, I advise you to read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud

There you will find how the practises of Judaism have changed over 3000 years. The document details how the rabbinate dealt with the various moral dilemnas presented by a changing society, and how the interpretation of the tanach changes as society progresses. New laws added, old laws repealed or edited. How can you honestly say that Judaism has not changed over the years? That is certainly unfathomable. The words written on the pages of the Torah do not change. The interpretation and the practises do. If you lived by Judaism in the time of slavery, it was vastly different to after slavery... And so the religion changed. If you lived by Judaism before the destruction of the first or second temples, this was vastly different to living afterwards. New customs and practises, like chanukah entered the practise. So how can you HONESTLY say that Judaism has not changed? I would argue that it is precisely the heated debate of the rabbinate and the constant adaptation of judaism to the cultures around it that has allowed it to survive where all hope for survival was almost null.

You've also put words in my mouth. I never even purported to say "ban Islam", in fact, that's what you've been arguing. I'm saying ban an instrument of subjugation of women. Not a faith. You seem very unwilling to allow Islam the time to remove itself from its dark age. The other monotheistic religions went through this stage. The leadership of Judaism and Christianity have, at times, condoned and even committed unspeakable crimes in the name of their religion. The extremist leaders in Islam are no different, it's just that they're on a different time lapse. Everything must be done in order to expunge the exploitation of the religion to wreak evil on the world, but the religion itself is not evil. Unfortunately, its dark age hasn't ended. It is incumbent upon us to say that when Muslims come to a country that recognises equality of women, we will not stand for their subjugation of the women in their religion within the countries to which they have emigrated. Yes, they have rights to freedom of religion, but only up until those rights infringe on the rights of others, at which point they are forfeit.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 11:28:18 pm by enwiabe »

Yitzi_K

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Re: Should France ban the veil? [OFFTOPIC]
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2010, 11:59:22 pm »
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Yitzi, I advise you to read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud

There you will find how the practises of Judaism have changed over 3000 years. The document details how the rabbinate dealt with the various moral dilemnas presented by a changing society, and how the interpretation of the tanach changes as society progresses. New laws added, old laws repealed or edited. How can you honestly say that Judaism has not changed over the years? That is certainly unfathomable. The words written on the pages of the Torah do not change. The interpretation and the practises do. If you lived by Judaism in the time of slavery, it was vastly different to after slavery... And so the religion changed. If you lived by Judaism before the destruction of the first or second temples, this was vastly different to living afterwards. New customs and practises, like chanukah entered the practise. So how can you HONESTLY say that Judaism has not changed? I would argue that it is precisely the heated debate of the rabbinate and the constant adaptation of judaism to the cultures around it that has allowed it to survive where all hope for survival was almost null.

You've also put words in my mouth. I never even purported to say "ban Islam", in fact, that's what you've been arguing. I'm saying ban an instrument of subjugation of women. Not a faith. You seem very unwilling to allow Islam the time to remove itself from its dark age. The other monotheistic religions went through this stage. The leadership of Judaism and Christianity have, at times, condoned and even committed unspeakable crimes in the name of their religion. The extremist leaders in Islam are no different, it's just that they're on a different time lapse. Everything must be done in order to expunge the exploitation of the religion to wreak evil on the world, but the religion itself is not evil. Unfortunately, its dark age hasn't ended. It is incumbent upon us to say that when Muslims come to a country that recognises equality of women, we will not stand for their subjugation of the women in their religion within the countries to which they have emigrated. Yes, they have rights to freedom of religion, but only up until those rights infringe on the rights of others, at which point they are forfeit.


Not to be rude, but I think I know what the Talmud is. I'm at Yeshivah, we learn Talmud for the first two hours of every day.

The Talmud is not about 'how the rabbinate dealt with the various moral dilemmas presented by a changing society, and how the interpretation of the tanach changes as society progresses'. The Talmud is simply the rabbis expounding on the Mishna, which is Jewish law, plain and simple. Currently in school we're learning Tractate Bava Kama, specifically the laws of how much a thief has to repay the owner of an ox if the ox appreciated or depreciated in value during the time the thief was in possession of it. Sure there's a lot more to the Talmud than that, but it is not about changing the interpretation of the Tanach as society progresses. The interpretation of Tanach can never change. Different rabbis may have different opinions how to interpret certain verses, but interpretations are in no way dependent on changing external circumstances.

Of course the practise of Judaism had to change after the destruction of the Temples. The real practise of Judaism is completely dependent on the Temple. An entire section of the Talmud, Kodshim (which was written after the destruction btw) is all about the Temple service. What we have now in the period where there is no Temple is merely interim, waiting for the Temple to be rebuilt (bimheirah v'yomeinu.) After the destruction, Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakai instituted several 'takanos', or laws, specifically 'in remembrance of the Temple'. The idea was so that the laws and practises of the Temple would not be forgotten, so that when it is rebuilt, we will go back to it and act the same as we did (with animal sacrifices etc) as we did when it was destroyed 2000 years ago. The idea was not to say that those past laws are now redundant and need to be changed.

Those kinds of new institutions I would not call changes, in any way. The book of Jewish Law, the Shulchan Aruch is exactly what Jews the world over today use as the basis for every kind of decision on Jewish law. No Orthodox rabbi in the world will go against the Shulchan Aruch. And yet, it was written 600 years ago, based on the Ramabam which was written by Maimonides 300 years before that, based on the Rif, based on the Rosh, based on the Talmud, which is based on the Mishna, which is based on the teachings of the Tana'im, who got their teachings from the Great Assembly, who learnt from the prophets, right the way back to Moses at Sinai. The laws every orthodox Jew follows today are exactly the same as those followed 3500 years ago.

The few additions (such as Chanukah, like you mentioned) are institutions purely based on remembrance and commemoration, not as a response to changing society. If anything, as society has changed, Jewish law became even stricter, to protect people from straying off the path.

'I would argue that it is precisely the ... constant adaptation of judaism to the cultures around it that has allowed it to survive where all hope for survival was almost null.'

I would argue the exact opposite. It is precisely the fact that orthodox Judaism hasn't changed which makes it so strong today. Moses Mendelsohn, the first Reform Jew, was a proponent of exactly what you are; that Judaism should react and be adaptable to other cultures. Not one of his grandchildren was Jewish. What G-d has said hasn't, doesn't, and never will, change, no matter what else does, and it is that belief which keeps Judaism going, nothing else.

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enwiabe

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Re: Should France ban the veil? [OFFTOPIC]
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2010, 12:09:13 am »
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Do you stone people for not observing the sabbath?

enwiabe

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Re: Should France ban the veil? [OFFTOPIC]
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2010, 12:17:41 am »
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And if Judaism doesn't change, then how do you explain the various sects that branch off?

Charedi, Hasidic, Sephardi, Ashkenazi, Lubavitcher, Orthodox, Modern Orthodox etc.

If there is nothing different about these sects then WHY do they exist?

Not to mention that the Yemeni Jewish practices have diverged greatly from that which you know. Of course, it's often more convenient for the orthodox to simply pretend they don't exist...

QuantumJG

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Re: Should France ban the veil? [OFFTOPIC]
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2010, 12:49:16 am »
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I know there have been killings in the name of God by "Christians" in the last century, thought they were really more a cult by that stage. I know not of Judaism. But really I only know what the media tells me... I haven't done any research or anything... And yes, I have heard of a LOT more about Islam... I hear heaps of crap about Islam..


And therein lies my point. There are a myriad problems with Islam. The forcing of women to wear a veil is but one of them. If you're going to start cracking down on Islamic practices, where do you stop?
There are a myriad of problems with all religions. Why don't we just get rid of them all?

This was my view on religion, but:


I don't like the whole religious practice full stop, Religion is the biggest source of inequality globally. Now think about it people are more inferior to another because of their religion. My stance on whether god exists is that I have no proof to say whether 'he' does or not. I don't personally see one religion to have more merit than the other and even though I don't like this whole religion pigeon-holling, I believe that my decision doesn't have to apply to everyone.


So we shouldn't get rid of them, but I personally want to avoid being put in a 'pigeon-hole'.

One thing I want to add is that I don't like these athiests who preach to other athiests (there was some athiest convention a few weeks ago where this happened - look up PZ Myers) and that guy was such a hypocrite (think of those iconic southern preachers in the US).



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Re: Should France ban the veil? [OFFTOPIC]
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2010, 02:02:17 am »
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If the burqa truly is a cultural thing from over 1500 years ago. It most likely comes from a man dominated 'women are lesser' society. Things like that no longer have a place in a modern society where everyone is considered equal. I don't see any reason why the burqa shouldn't be banned but let the head scarfs stay. This oppression nonsense is rubbish it is estimated that 2000 women in France wear the burqa 2000 out of a population of 3.7million "possible muslims" in France. Obviously a lot more women would be wearing it if it was oppression from the husband/religion/culture yet these women either do it by choice or their husbands really are oppressing them.
If they are not being forced to wear the burqa why can't they wear just a normal headscarf and if they are being forced to wear it then this would surely give them some freedom from what surely is an abusive marriage(abusive in the 'you're lesser than me!' way not in the physical abusive way)

Thats just what I think at 2am.

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Re: Should France ban the veil? [OFFTOPIC]
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2010, 12:32:49 pm »
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If the burqa truly is a cultural thing from over 1500 years ago. It most likely comes from a man dominated 'women are lesser' society. Things like that no longer have a place in a modern society where everyone is considered equal. I don't see any reason why the burqa shouldn't be banned but let the head scarfs stay. This oppression nonsense is rubbish it is estimated that 2000 women in France wear the burqa 2000 out of a population of 3.7million "possible muslims" in France. Obviously a lot more women would be wearing it if it was oppression from the husband/religion/culture yet these women either do it by choice or their husbands really are oppressing them.
If they are not being forced to wear the burqa why can't they wear just a normal headscarf and if they are being forced to wear it then this would surely give them some freedom from what surely is an abusive marriage(abusive in the 'you're lesser than me!' way not in the physical abusive way)

Thats just what I think at 2am.

I can throw the same argument back though. Why do you wear pants? Why don't you choose to wear shorts instead? Or a dress? Shouldn't these things be matters of your own person volition, rather than something that the State decides.

Because it's a far less superficial dislike than the one for Justin Bieber (lol) and stems from a complex history (of which I admit I know far too little still).

This is what I do know:

Have a look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La%C3%AFcit%C3%A9#France
Quote
Laïcité is currently a core concept in the French constitution, whose Article 1 formally states that France is a secular republic ("La France est une République indivisible, laïque, démocratique et sociale.") Many see being discreet with one's religion as a necessary part of being French. This has led to frequent divisions with non-Christian immigrants, especially with France's large Muslim population. A recent debate has been over whether any religious apparel or displays by individuals, such as the Islamic hijab, Sikh turban, (large) Christian crosses and Jewish Stars of David, should be banned from public schools. Such a ban came into effect in France in 2004, see French law on secularity and conspicuous religious symbols in schools.

In 2009 France launched a national debate on national identity - what it means to be French. A statistics company analysed the contributions on the specially set up website. One of the most frequently discussed issues they identified was the idea that to be French you must subscribe to the principles and values of French society, in particular the principles of liberty/equality/fraternity, human rights, and secularity. (I've attached it but unfortunately it's all in French)

For many French citizens the idea of secularism and of being discreet with one's religious practices goes to the very heart of being French. It is not merely an issue of "we don't like how they dress" or "it's oppression of women". It's far deeper than that.

I think the biggest problem is 'are we discussing what is or what ought to be'. Yes, France is a secular country and yes that does mean its culture set may promote laws such as the banning of the burqa. But should France do such a thing (the ought)? That's a different question altogether.
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ninwa

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Re: Should France ban the veil? [OFFTOPIC]
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2010, 12:39:15 pm »
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By completely disregarding France's history and culture, are you not doing the exact thing you are protesting against? You're imposing your own values of what "ought" to be done upon them. Why are your values more right than theirs?
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Re: Should France ban the veil? [OFFTOPIC]
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2010, 01:08:56 pm »
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Because it's a far less superficial dislike than the one for Justin Bieber (lol) and stems from a complex history (of which I admit I know far too little still).

This is what I do know:

Have a look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La%C3%AFcit%C3%A9#France
Quote
Laïcité is currently a core concept in the French constitution, whose Article 1 formally states that France is a secular republic ("La France est une République indivisible, laïque, démocratique et sociale.") Many see being discreet with one's religion as a necessary part of being French. This has led to frequent divisions with non-Christian immigrants, especially with France's large Muslim population. A recent debate has been over whether any religious apparel or displays by individuals, such as the Islamic hijab, Sikh turban, (large) Christian crosses and Jewish Stars of David, should be banned from public schools. Such a ban came into effect in France in 2004, see French law on secularity and conspicuous religious symbols in schools.

In 2009 France launched a national debate on national identity - what it means to be French. A statistics company analysed the contributions on the specially set up website. One of the most frequently discussed issues they identified was the idea that to be French you must subscribe to the principles and values of French society, in particular the principles of liberty/equality/fraternity, human rights, and secularity. (I've attached it but unfortunately it's all in French)

For many French citizens the idea of secularism and of being discreet with one's religious practices goes to the very heart of being French. It is not merely an issue of "we don't like how they dress" or "it's oppression of women". It's far deeper than that.
Just because you live in France, doesn't mean you should act in a way that others think of as 'French'. You still have that personal autonomy (isn't that what liberte is all about?). I know it's not exactly the same, but if the French banned wearing a crucifix that other could see, would that be okay? If all religion is truly 'unFrench', then shouldn't all faith emblems be banned in public?

But more importantly, I find it disturbing that people in this thread think that Islam is inherently oppressive. Religion is abstract and should be separated from the practitioners of the religion who can decide what they want to follow and what they don't. In the case of Islam, there is little evidence to support that it inherently oppresses women, although governments of Islamic states certainly do. There is nothing wrong with Islam, but there is something wrong in using religion to justify or explain awful behaviour.