Being anti-Israel is not being Anti-semitic

[trinon]

Chavi, Why do you assume that I am pro-Palestinian and that I just dislike the way Israel handles the situation? and IDF soldiers were injured fair enough I saw the footage shortly after posting that post. (The IDF has never heard of tear gas?) Although to be honest that video didn't really show me anything just an Israeli soldier shouting about "real" weapons which didn't really convince me.
Enwiabe, I meant to imply that it seemed unlikely that that particular 19 year old was a terrorist not that every 19 year old couldn't be a terrorist.
trinon, Good argument it's probably the best one in this thread. I have nothing to criticise. Except maybe your "The blockade is legal" argument. The legality of the blockade has been questioned: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,539363,00.html but take from that what you will.

Anyway I've obviously lost this argument and I'm man enough to admit that.
I would like to add that I'm not pro-Palestine nor am I anti-Israel. I'm anti-Middle East. The place just bugs me. They all claim to be loving religious people but they'll go bat shit crazy if you draw their prophet. In fact I sort of sympathies with Israel because they're right in the middle of this place surrounded by people who want them wiped off the face of the earth. I can understand that Israel is trying to protect itself from terrorists but I think they're going about it the wrong way and they're disadvantaging the innocent people in Gaza who just want to mind their own business and go about their lives in peace.

Everyone is taking a book written over 1000 years ago too seriously.

The question of tear gas and other disabling weapons have been raised. Frankly, if tear gas or some other disabling weapon was used, then more than likely there would have been no deaths. On the other hand, if Israel had of boarded the flotilla with the intent of disabling the passengers through force, then Israel would definitely be in the wrong. Israel went in with the intention to take control of the boat without harm, as peacefully as possible. In hindsight, maybe Israel should have used a disabling weapon. But in hindsight, had Israel of used a disabling weapon, they would be in a far worse situation because although there would be fewer or even no casualties, the passengers on board would no doubt have argued that they were peaceful and meant no harm towards the IDF, which we now know to be a false statement. When you get down to it, it was the passengers choices to take up arms against the IDF soldiers, and that resulted in their own deaths.

As for Israel going about it the wrong way: All I can do or say is I recommend you to do some serious research into the factual historic data over the passed 120 years, from the first Zionist Congress up to today. I have faith that you will find that Israel has bent over backwards for the Palestinian people only to receive hatred and brutality back.

I'm interested to know how Israel is disadvantaging the innocent people of Gaza, knowing that Gaza is not an occupied region, but instead an independent state who's government denies the legitimacy of Israel as a state and has sworn death to every single Jewish person within the world. If you ask me, it's Gaza that is disadvantaging the innocent people of Gaza, and Israel is their scapegoat.

Which book are you referring to? The Torah? The Quran? Neither say that you should take up arms against the opposing religion. It's the extremist fundamentalists that interpret their respective bibles in unique and widely discredited ways. On top of that, both the Torah and the Quran have some pretty amazing ideals and wonderful ways to live your life in a honest, positive way.

As for the drawing of the Islamic prophet, I completely understand where they are coming from. It is one of the biggest sins within Islam to depict Mohamed in any way, shape or form. It's like someone comes into your house, drags you outside, burns down your house, all the while as they urinate all over you. I imagine you'd be pretty pissed off. Don't forget, we're only humans, and although the respective bibles preach absolute peace, it's extremely hard to resist the urge to defend ones complete belief system when it comes under scrutiny

[Noblesse]

"Israel and Palestine have both done nasty shit to each other... let's try and stop this nasty shit from continuing"

This.

If it will shut them up, we should just give one Alice Springs...

[ninwa]

essay

mini-essay

summary for the time-challenged: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/03/AR2010060304287.html

[Cthulhu]

Chavi, Why do you assume that I am pro-Palestinian and that I just dislike the way Israel handles the situation? and IDF soldiers were injured fair enough I saw the footage shortly after posting that post. (The IDF has never heard of tear gas?) Although to be honest that video didn't really show me anything just an Israeli soldier shouting about "real" weapons which didn't really convince me.
Enwiabe, I meant to imply that it seemed unlikely that that particular 19 year old was a terrorist not that every 19 year old couldn't be a terrorist.
trinon, Good argument it's probably the best one in this thread. I have nothing to criticise. Except maybe your "The blockade is legal" argument. The legality of the blockade has been questioned: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,539363,00.html but take from that what you will.

Anyway I've obviously lost this argument and I'm man enough to admit that.
I would like to add that I'm not pro-Palestine nor am I anti-Israel. I'm anti-Middle East. The place just bugs me. They all claim to be loving religious people but they'll go bat shit crazy if you draw their prophet. In fact I sort of sympathies with Israel because they're right in the middle of this place surrounded by people who want them wiped off the face of the earth. I can understand that Israel is trying to protect itself from terrorists but I think they're going about it the wrong way and they're disadvantaging the innocent people in Gaza who just want to mind their own business and go about their lives in peace.

Everyone is taking a book written over 1000 years ago too seriously.

The question of tear gas and other disabling weapons have been raised. Frankly, if tear gas or some other disabling weapon was used, then more than likely there would have been no deaths. On the other hand, if Israel had of boarded the flotilla with the intent of disabling the passengers through force, then Israel would definitely be in the wrong. Israel went in with the intention to take control of the boat without harm, as peacefully as possible. In hindsight, maybe Israel should have used a disabling weapon. But in hindsight, had Israel of used a disabling weapon, they would be in a far worse situation because although there would be fewer or even no casualties, the passengers on board would no doubt have argued that they were peaceful and meant no harm towards the IDF, which we now know to be a false statement. When you get down to it, it was the passengers choices to take up arms against the IDF soldiers, and that resulted in their own deaths.

Surely if the boat had failed to stop at the dock like the other 5 had then it obviously had sinister intentions and the IDF would have boarded the boat with intent to disable it thus having the need for disabling weapons? and why weren't they used shortly after the attacks began then?

As for Israel going about it the wrong way: All I can do or say is I recommend you to do some serious research into the factual historic data over the passed 120 years, from the first Zionist Congress up to today. I have faith that you will find that Israel has bent over backwards for the Palestinian people only to receive hatred and brutality back.

Yes I do need to do more research on this.

Which book are you referring to? The Torah? The Quran? Neither say that you should take up arms against the opposing religion. It's the extremist fundamentalists that interpret their respective bibles in unique and widely discredited ways. On top of that, both the Torah and the Quran have some pretty amazing ideals and wonderful ways to live your life in a honest, positive way.

This is what I meant. The extremists and anti-other-religion persons not everyone.

As for the drawing of the Islamic prophet, I completely understand where they are coming from. It is one of the biggest sins within Islam to depict Mohamed in any way, shape or form. It's like someone comes into your house, drags you outside, burns down your house, all the while as they urinate all over you. I imagine you'd be pretty pissed off. Don't forget, we're only humans, and although the respective bibles preach absolute peace, it's extremely hard to resist the urge to defend ones complete belief system when it comes under scrutiny

I give you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depictions_of_Muhammad#Visual_depictions

[trinon]

Surely if the boat had failed to stop at the dock like the other 5 had then it obviously had sinister intentions and the IDF would have boarded the boat with intent to disable it thus having the need for disabling weapons?

Yeah, I agree, but unfortunately the rest of the world doesn't. Problem is that when a delicate situation such as this happens, most people accuse first and ask questions later.

and why weren't they used shortly after the attacks began then?

Like I said, it could have been done better.

I give you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depictions_of_Muhammad#Visual_depictions

Yeah, don't ask me. I don't claim to believe Islam

[Chavi]

This music video sums up the situation perfectly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg&feature=player_embedded

[TrueLight]

what a crap video

[ghadz7]

LOL

[Cthulhu]

This music video sums up the situation perfectly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg&feature=player_embedded

I have to agree with TrueLight. It is pretty awful. I had to laugh when I saw the ship captain though.

[Yitzi_K]

This music video sums up the situation perfectly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg&feature=player_embedded

I have to agree with TrueLight. It is pretty awful. I had to laugh when I saw the ship captain though.

It is a silly video, but it's very true.

Something I found amazing, and I'm surprised no one else picked up on, is in the clips of the 'activists' returning to Turkey, they're flashing victory signs, and celebrating in general. Now why would they be celebrating, if on the face of it their mission was such a failure? After all, 9 of their colleagues were killed, and the aid has still not been delivered. Yet they're still celebrating a victory. Why is that?

The obvious answer, is that they did have a victory, because their mission was never to get aid to Gaza. Their mission was to spark a fight with the IDF, hopefully suffer casualties, make martyrs of themselves (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/02/flotilla-raid-turkish-jihadis-troops-israel-claims) get TV footage out of more Israeli 'atrocities' and in general paint Israel in the worst light possible. In that, they certainly had a victory.

[ninwa]

'Gaza stand-off over' declares Netanyahu as Rachel Corrie crew co-operate

ISRAELI Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu hailed the peaceful ending to a stand-off between the navy and Gaza-bound foreign aid ship the Rachel Corrie, which concluded without violence.

"We saw today the difference between a ship of peace activists, with whom we don't agree but respect their right to a different opinion from ours, and between a ship of hate organised by violent Turkish terror extremists," the premier's office cited him as saying.

A spokeswoman for the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) confirmed the Navy boarded the boat and took control without meeting "any resistance" from the crew or the passengers.

"Everything took place without violence," she added.

Seems somebody's taken the VCE course in emotive language

But the takeover prompted a furious response from the Dublin-based Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign.

"For the second time in less than a week, Israeli forces stormed and hijacked an unarmed aid ship, kidnapping its passengers and forcing the ship toward Ashdod port," it said.

The Irish government, which had urged Israel to allow the ship to reach Gaza, was kept informed of developments as the situation unfolded

In a statement, the Israeli Defence Forces defended their actions under international law.

"The rules of warfare allow the capturing of naval vessels prior to their actual violation of a naval blockade," it said.

"This is dependent on the vessels being on their way to a blockaded area, being outside the territorial waters of neutral states and when there is a substantial likelihood (based on credible evidence) that the vessels intend to violate the blockade.

"Declarations by the flotilla’s organisers and their reactions to the messages that were transmitted to them during their approach clearly show that they had intended to break the naval blockade, thus allowing for the steps taken by IDF forces."

[Chavi]

In response to all those who say that the flotilla was motivated simply by antizionism:
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=177566
and the audio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxY7Q7CvQPQ

[Cthulhu]

http://vimeo.com/12429821

[Yitzi_K]

IHH scumbags got what they deserved.