Login

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

May 23, 2025, 07:14:56 pm

Author Topic: Creationists hijack lessons  (Read 18358 times)  Share 

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Yitzi_K

  • Victorian
  • Forum Leader
  • ****
  • Posts: 893
  • Respect: +3
Re: Creationists hijack lessons
« Reply #75 on: August 05, 2010, 08:31:37 am »
0
Not true. More books are constantly being written, as they will ad infinitum.

Yet another contradiction in terms. I thought the Torah was 3200 times bigger? If more shit keeps getting written, would not this number inflate? Of course you're already breaking so many rules of Mathematics here in the first place, but sure, let's go for gold!

No.... why would the number inflate? The size of the Torah comes to 3200 times bigger than the universe. What has currently been written down is not the Torah in its entirety. Far more (an infinite amount) exists. Any 'new' Torah that is written is not expanding how much there is, it's simply committing more of it to paper.

(Although on a side note, you could say that since the universe is constantly expanding, it stands to reason that the Torah is expanding also, hence more is being written, but I don't think that's what was meant)
2009: Legal Studies [41]
2010: English [45], Maths Methods [47], Economics [45], Specialist Maths [41], Accounting [48]

2010 ATAR: 99.60

ninwa

  • Great Wonder of ATAR Notes
  • *******
  • Posts: 8267
  • Respect: +1021
Re: Creationists hijack lessons
« Reply #76 on: August 05, 2010, 09:56:52 am »
0
Can I just confirm your views on this

You believe that:
- the Torah contains information on all scientific discoveries made to date (and presumably those that haven't been made yet)
- everything in the Torah is correct and true
- the Torah should be read literally (I think I recall you saying this somewhere)

?
ExamPro enquiries to [email protected]

slothpomba

  • Honorary Moderator
  • ATAR Notes Legend
  • *******
  • Posts: 4458
  • Chief Executive Sloth
  • Respect: +327
Re: Creationists hijack lessons
« Reply #77 on: August 05, 2010, 05:10:47 pm »
0
wait what i thought the torah was just like...Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy thats not 3200 times bigger than the universe... whered i go wrong

ATAR Notes Chat
Philosophy thread
-----
2011-15: Bachelor of Science/Arts (Religious studies) @ Monash Clayton - Majors: Pharmacology, Physiology, Developmental Biology
2016: Bachelor of Science (Honours) - Psychiatry research

Yitzi_K

  • Victorian
  • Forum Leader
  • ****
  • Posts: 893
  • Respect: +3
Re: Creationists hijack lessons
« Reply #78 on: August 05, 2010, 05:18:36 pm »
0
Can I just confirm your views on this

You believe that:
- the Torah contains information on all scientific discoveries made to date (and presumably those that haven't been made yet)
- everything in the Torah is correct and true
- the Torah should be read literally (I think I recall you saying this somewhere)

?

Yes, yes and yes.

wait what i thought the torah was just like...Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy thats not 3200 times bigger than the universe... whered i go wrong

With your definition of Torah.
2009: Legal Studies [41]
2010: English [45], Maths Methods [47], Economics [45], Specialist Maths [41], Accounting [48]

2010 ATAR: 99.60

slothpomba

  • Honorary Moderator
  • ATAR Notes Legend
  • *******
  • Posts: 4458
  • Chief Executive Sloth
  • Respect: +327
Re: Creationists hijack lessons
« Reply #79 on: August 05, 2010, 05:32:49 pm »
0
Oh...whats your definition... dont know much about judaism just interested

ATAR Notes Chat
Philosophy thread
-----
2011-15: Bachelor of Science/Arts (Religious studies) @ Monash Clayton - Majors: Pharmacology, Physiology, Developmental Biology
2016: Bachelor of Science (Honours) - Psychiatry research

kamil9876

  • Victorian
  • Part of the furniture
  • *****
  • Posts: 1943
  • Respect: +109
Re: Creationists hijack lessons
« Reply #80 on: August 05, 2010, 05:42:12 pm »
0
So every truth can be derived from the Torah, but you just have to work a bit on it.

Well that is saying about as much as "a proof of Fermat's Last Theorem can be derived from a blank piece of paper and a pen if u just work a bit on it".

Just because there is vague mention of pi or infinity doesn't mean they were anywhere close to todays knowledge or even on the right track. In fact you said

Quote
Interesting factoid: Pi wasn't proven to be transcendental until 1882. Yet the Rambam, who I mentioned above, writes
Quote
The ratio [we know as pi] cannot be known. Since it is impossible to arrive at a perfectly accurate ratio, they assumed a round number...
around 600 years before that. He learnt that from the Torah.

The Rambam is simply conjecturing that pi is irrational, which is a lot lot lot simpler than proving that it is transcendental (he probably didn't have an idea of what transcendental is since polynomials were just beggining to be invented around that time).
Voltaire: "There is an astonishing imagination even in the science of mathematics ... We repeat, there is far more imagination in the head of Archimedes than in that of Homer."

ninwa

  • Great Wonder of ATAR Notes
  • *******
  • Posts: 8267
  • Respect: +1021
Re: Creationists hijack lessons
« Reply #81 on: August 05, 2010, 06:08:09 pm »
0
Can I just confirm your views on this

You believe that:
- the Torah contains information on all scientific discoveries made to date (and presumably those that haven't been made yet)
- everything in the Torah is correct and true
- the Torah should be read literally (I think I recall you saying this somewhere)

?

Yes, yes and yes.

In that case, how do you reconcile the conflicts between the Torah and science?

I take it you believe in creationism and therefore not evolution. In that case, why do females not have one more rib than males, since Eve was created from Adam's rib? If the Torah knows everything about everything, that includes human physiology.

It's been a long time since I read my Bible (as hard as it may be to believe, I was religious once upon a time) but I vaguely recall that it suggests that the world is only a few thousand years old. Yet there's a consensus in the scientific community that the age of the universe has been determined to be somewhere around 14 billion years using a range of scientific methods. That makes no sense unless you can somehow argue that each "day" of creation was actually an era or something (in which case that isn't really reading it literally, is it?)

Do you accept as scientific fact that plants need to conduct their photosynthetic processes in order to live? And that they obtain this light from the sun? In that case, why did god make plants a whole day before he made the sun and the moon? How could those plants have survived?

Speaking of which, bible refers to the moon as a light, which it clearly isn't.

Oh. Genesis 30:37-39 seems to suggest that putting streaked rods in front of copulating goats makes them have streaked babies. Please explain.

This is all I can recall right now but I'm sure there's more. It's been a while since I last opened a bible.
ExamPro enquiries to [email protected]

Russ

  • Honorary Moderator
  • Great Wonder of ATAR Notes
  • *******
  • Posts: 8442
  • Respect: +661
Re: Creationists hijack lessons
« Reply #82 on: August 05, 2010, 06:13:01 pm »
0


I take it you believe in creationism and therefore not evolution. In that case, why do females not have one more rib than males, since Eve was created from Adam's rib? If the Torah knows everything about everything, that includes human physiology.


I don't like creationism, but I always found this a weird argument...what's to say God didn't either regrow Adam's or create Eve with one less? Unless it specifically says so in Genesis, I only read the New Testament.

ninwa

  • Great Wonder of ATAR Notes
  • *******
  • Posts: 8267
  • Respect: +1021
Re: Creationists hijack lessons
« Reply #83 on: August 05, 2010, 06:15:10 pm »
0
Well, AFAIK the bible makes no mention of that whatsoever, so making an assumption like that would not be reading it literally.

EDIT: apparently ribs can grow back! LOL http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070725110941AAlLVju
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 06:17:43 pm by ninwa »
ExamPro enquiries to [email protected]

Cthulhu

  • Guest
Re: Creationists hijack lessons
« Reply #84 on: August 05, 2010, 06:23:16 pm »
0
How can you say you have to read the Torah literally which states that but then you say you have to read between the lines to get a proper approximation?

Mao

  • CH41RMN
  • Honorary Moderator
  • Great Wonder of ATAR Notes
  • *******
  • Posts: 9181
  • Respect: +390
  • School: Kambrya College
  • School Grad Year: 2008
Re: Creationists hijack lessons
« Reply #85 on: August 05, 2010, 06:39:51 pm »
0
How can you say you have to read the Torah literally which states that but then you say you have to read between the lines to get a proper approximation?

Given an infinite universe, anything you care to look for will exist somewhere.
Editor for ATARNotes Chemistry study guides.

VCE 2008 | Monash BSc (Chem., Appl. Math.) 2009-2011 | UoM BScHon (Chem.) 2012 | UoM PhD (Chem.) 2013-2015

Yitzi_K

  • Victorian
  • Forum Leader
  • ****
  • Posts: 893
  • Respect: +3
Re: Creationists hijack lessons
« Reply #86 on: August 05, 2010, 06:43:50 pm »
0
In that case, how do you reconcile the conflicts between the Torah and science?

I take it you believe in creationism and therefore not evolution. In that case, why do females not have one more rib than males, since Eve was created from Adam's rib? If the Torah knows everything about everything, that includes human physiology.


Who says it was a rib? The actual hebrew in that verse is 'va'yiven et ha'sela' which means 'And He constructed the sela'. I left the word sela untranslated as there is no absolute consensus as to what it means. The literal translation is 'side', which is rather ambiguous. There are various opinions in the Talmud as to what Eve was created out of, and according to no opinions was it a rib.

It's been a long time since I read my Bible (as hard as it may be to believe, I was religious once upon a time) but I vaguely recall that it suggests that the world is only a few thousand years old. Yet there's a consensus in the scientific community that the age of the universe has been determined to be somewhere around 14 billion years using a range of scientific methods. That makes no sense unless you can somehow argue that each "day" of creation was actually an era or something (in which case that isn't really reading it literally, is it?)

There is a blindingly obvious answer to this question. Let me start by asking, how old was Adam when he was created? It's clear from the text that he wasn't a one-day-old baby, he was a grown man. (The Talmud says he was biologically 20 years old if I remember correctly.) The same goes for all of the animals and vegetation created during that week, they were obviously created fully formed and not as newborns. This being the case, why can't the same be applied to the Earth itself? It is certainly not beyond the capabilities of G-d to create something which at the time of its own formation is already billions of years old. All He needs to do is create rocks, water and minerals etc which were biologically and chemically already ancient, just as with Adam.

Do you accept as scientific fact that plants need to conduct their photosynthetic processes in order to live? And that they obtain this light from the sun? In that case, why did god make plants a whole day before he made the sun and the moon? How could those plants have survived?

A good question, which I have wondered myself previously. I don't have a good answer right now, but I will search for one. A possible answer is that while the sun and moon may not have been created, from Day 1 there was light, which could have provided the plants with whatever they needed, despite not being in the form of the sun as we know it now.

Speaking of which, bible refers to the moon as a light, which it clearly isn't.
It may not be a source of light in and of itself, but it certainly lights up dark nights. As you know, seeing 'by the light of the moon' is a common expression. There is a also a discussion in the Talmud which says how originally both the sun and moon really were lights, but G-d then diminished the light of moon. (It is interesting to note that the despite the sun and moon being millions of miles away from each other, their respective size:distance ratio makes them appear exactly the same size from Earth, a startling 'coincidence'.)

Oh. Genesis 30:37-39 seems to suggest that putting streaked rods in front of copulating goats makes them have streaked babies. Please explain.

It was a miracle. Lavan was trying to swindle Jacob out of his rightful payment, so G-d helped him out.

This is all I can recall right now but I'm sure there's more. It's been a while since I last opened a bible.

Fire away.
2009: Legal Studies [41]
2010: English [45], Maths Methods [47], Economics [45], Specialist Maths [41], Accounting [48]

2010 ATAR: 99.60

Yitzi_K

  • Victorian
  • Forum Leader
  • ****
  • Posts: 893
  • Respect: +3
Re: Creationists hijack lessons
« Reply #87 on: August 05, 2010, 06:46:44 pm »
0
Oh...whats your definition... dont know much about judaism just interested

It's true that the literal definition of Torah does refer to the Five Books, however Torah has a broader meaning as well, which essentially includes absolutely everything to with G-d, G-dliness, Jewish law, kabbalah, as well as much else.
2009: Legal Studies [41]
2010: English [45], Maths Methods [47], Economics [45], Specialist Maths [41], Accounting [48]

2010 ATAR: 99.60

Yitzi_K

  • Victorian
  • Forum Leader
  • ****
  • Posts: 893
  • Respect: +3
Re: Creationists hijack lessons
« Reply #88 on: August 05, 2010, 06:48:05 pm »
0
How can you say you have to read the Torah literally which states that but then you say you have to read between the lines to get a proper approximation?

Pi DOES equal 3, correct to one significant figure. It is no more accurate to say that Pi=3.14159 than to say it equals 3, both are out by an infinite amount of figures.
2009: Legal Studies [41]
2010: English [45], Maths Methods [47], Economics [45], Specialist Maths [41], Accounting [48]

2010 ATAR: 99.60

kamil9876

  • Victorian
  • Part of the furniture
  • *****
  • Posts: 1943
  • Respect: +109
Re: Creationists hijack lessons
« Reply #89 on: August 05, 2010, 07:05:39 pm »
0
Hrmm this reminds me of my year8 days where i still gave a fuck about eucilidean geometry:

proof that 3<pi<4:

pi is the area of the unit circle. Inscribe a 12-sided polygon(yes i forgot what they are called, maybe the Torah Powar can remind me). The area of this is 3. Therefore 3<pi.

Now circumscribe a square, it is 2*2=4. Thus 3<pi<4.

Fuck me I've got Torah Powar
Voltaire: "There is an astonishing imagination even in the science of mathematics ... We repeat, there is far more imagination in the head of Archimedes than in that of Homer."