Creationists hijack lessons

[TrueTears]

If I were to tell you that Pi to 4 decimal places was hinted at in the Torah, would that be of any interest to you people?

I am quite interested, what techniques did they use to approximate it? I know Euclid's algorithm was one of the first ways of approximating . It would be nice to see some other earlier methods.

[/0]

fascinating =]

[Yitzi_K]

So bear with me here. Like I said, it's only hinted at.

The chapter in Kings describing the construction of the Temple contains the following verse:

'And he cast the pool, ten cubits from edge to edge, round, five cubits deep, and the perimeter surrounding it thirty cubits.'

From that verse, we see that Pi = 3, which is of course correct to one significant figure.

However, a closer analysis of the verse (and all verses should be closely analysed) reveals something else.

The hebrew word for perimeter is kav, spelt kuf-vav, which has a gematria (numerical value; in hebrew every letter has a corresponding numerical value) of 106.
However, in this verse and this verse alone, the word is kavah, spelt kuf-vav-hei, gematria 111.

111/106= 1.04716981....
Multiply that result by the value given, 3, and we get 3.1415, Pi to 4 decimal places.

Now you can, and probably will, dismiss that as meaningless coincidence, but to me the fact that this number can even be derived at all from a verse which explicitly discusses the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter is mind blowing.

[taiga]

Daniel, attack the arguments, not the person.

Though I think the arguments have been shredded to pieces.

[slothpomba]

Am i the only one who finds it just a bit silly and illogical that he says you can learn anything from it but he doesnt know how you can learn certain things from it..kind of reminds me of russells teapot.

[Yitzi_K]

Am i the only one who finds it just a bit silly and illogical that he says you can learn anything from it but he doesnt know how you can learn certain things from it..kind of reminds me of russells teapot.

Nonesense. There's millions of things that both you and I don't know how they work, but that doesn't stop us using them, because we accept that they do work. It's just something that has to be learnt.

[TrueTears]

So bear with me here. Like I said, it's only hinted at.

The chapter in Kings describing the construction of the Temple contains the following verse:

'And he cast the pool, ten cubits from edge to edge, round, five cubits deep, and the perimeter surrounding it thirty cubits.'

From that verse, we see that Pi = 3, which is of course correct to one significant figure.

However, a closer analysis of the verse (and all verses should be closely analysed) reveals something else.

The hebrew word for perimeter is kav, spelt kuf-vav, which has a gematria (numerical value; in hebrew every letter has a corresponding numerical value) of 106.
However, in this verse and this verse alone, the word is kavah, spelt kuf-vav-hei, gematria 111.

111/106= 1.04716981....
Multiply that result by the value given, 3, and we get 3.1415, Pi to 4 decimal places.

Now you can, and probably will, dismiss that as meaningless coincidence, but to me the fact that this number can even be derived at all from a verse which explicitly discusses the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter is mind blowing.

Are all proofs of mathematics like that in the Torah? That's quite interesting, how do they prove the Fundamental Theorem of Arithmetic? (I'm especially interested in the uniqueness part of it).

[ninwa]

ummm that verse doesn't actually tell you how to find pi in the first place

[QuantumJG]

I'm really getting tired of these arguments.

At that school, if the parents were stupid enough to allow their children to be taught by that 'prteacher' then that says enough about the intelligence of the parent.

[Mao]

I challenge anyone who can verify pi to the billionth digit with the Torah. (As modern science and mathematics has achieved)

Further to that, I challenge anyone who can verify the golden ratio phi and the natural base e to a significant precision. (Also as modern science and mathematics has achieved)

I challenge anyone who can obtain the entire human genome from the Torah. (Also as modern science has achieved)

The first and last item possibly require the Torah to be much much longer than it currently is, simply because there is just too much information. Now, if it cannot give those, how can all science be derived from it and it alone?

[Yitzi_K]

ummm that verse doesn't actually tell you how to find pi in the first place

ummm yes it does, it says the pool was 30 cubits around and 10 across. Hence Pi = 3, unless you look at it a little deeper.

I'm really getting tired of these arguments.

At that school, if the parents were stupid enough to allow their children to be taught by that 'prteacher' then that says enough about the intelligence of the parent.

Because you're the arbiter of intelligence? You're getting onto dodgy ground when you're questioning the intelligence of people you don't know, who are quite possibly far more intelligent than you are.

[Yitzi_K]

I challenge anyone who can verify pi to the billionth digit with the Torah. (As modern science and mathematics has achieved)

Further to that, I challenge anyone who can verify the golden ratio phi and the natural base e to a significant precision. (Also as modern science and mathematics has achieved)

I challenge anyone who can obtain the entire human genome from the Torah. (Also as modern science has achieved)

The first and last item possibly require the Torah to be much much longer than it currently is, simply because there is just too much information. Now, if it cannot give those, how can all science be derived from it and it alone?

And how big would you say the Torah is? It says in the Talmud that Torah is 3200 times the size of the universe. (Make of that what you will).

[enwiabe]

I challenge anyone who can verify pi to the billionth digit with the Torah. (As modern science and mathematics has achieved)

Further to that, I challenge anyone who can verify the golden ratio phi and the natural base e to a significant precision. (Also as modern science and mathematics has achieved)

I challenge anyone who can obtain the entire human genome from the Torah. (Also as modern science has achieved)

The first and last item possibly require the Torah to be much much longer than it currently is, simply because there is just too much information. Now, if it cannot give those, how can all science be derived from it and it alone?

And how big would you say the Torah is? It says in the Talmud that Torah is 3200 times the size of the universe. (Make of that what you will).

Where to begin? Firstly, how do you contain an object within a container when the 'contained' object itself dwarfs the container by 3 orders of magnitude? Next, the universe is infinite and forever expanding, so therefore that is a hilariously flawed statement at every syllable (e.g. 3200*infinity=9999999999999*infinity=999999999998*infinity=...infinity, so the arbitrary selection of 3200 indicates a supreme ass-talking).

[Yitzi_K]

I challenge anyone who can verify pi to the billionth digit with the Torah. (As modern science and mathematics has achieved)

Further to that, I challenge anyone who can verify the golden ratio phi and the natural base e to a significant precision. (Also as modern science and mathematics has achieved)

I challenge anyone who can obtain the entire human genome from the Torah. (Also as modern science has achieved)

The first and last item possibly require the Torah to be much much longer than it currently is, simply because there is just too much information. Now, if it cannot give those, how can all science be derived from it and it alone?

And how big would you say the Torah is? It says in the Talmud that Torah is 3200 times the size of the universe. (Make of that what you will).

Where to begin? Firstly, how do you contain something which is "3200 times larger" than something within the thing of which it is larger? Next, the universe is infinite and forever expanding, so therefore that is a hilariously flawed statement at every syllable.

That is exactly my point. Like G-d, the Torah is greater than the universe, hence the entirety of the universe is contained within it.

Btw, going back to Cantor and infinity, why do you think Cantor used alephs for his orders of infinity? I saw a hypothesis which suggests that aleph stands for Ein Sof (no end), which is the name used to describe the infiniteness of G-d. Also Cantor himself identified the Absolute Infinite with G-d.

[enwiabe]

I challenge anyone who can verify pi to the billionth digit with the Torah. (As modern science and mathematics has achieved)

Further to that, I challenge anyone who can verify the golden ratio phi and the natural base e to a significant precision. (Also as modern science and mathematics has achieved)

I challenge anyone who can obtain the entire human genome from the Torah. (Also as modern science has achieved)

The first and last item possibly require the Torah to be much much longer than it currently is, simply because there is just too much information. Now, if it cannot give those, how can all science be derived from it and it alone?

And how big would you say the Torah is? It says in the Talmud that Torah is 3200 times the size of the universe. (Make of that what you will).

Where to begin? Firstly, how do you contain something which is "3200 times larger" than something within the thing of which it is larger? Next, the universe is infinite and forever expanding, so therefore that is a hilariously flawed statement at every syllable.

That is exactly my point. Like G-d, the Torah is greater than the universe, hence the entirety of the universe is contained within it.

Btw, going back to Cantor and infinity, why do you think Cantor used alephs for his orders of infinity? I saw a hypothesis which suggests that aleph stands for Ein Sof (no end), which is the name used to describe the infiniteness of G-d. Also Cantor himself identified the Absolute Infinite with G-d.

He used the alephs because all of the cool greek letters were taken.

Seriously, your argument was, "he used a hebrew letter, therefore it was God!!1111"?

And read the edited version of that post where I further explain how stupid the statement is.