Creationists hijack lessons

[Yitzi_K]

I challenge anyone who can verify pi to the billionth digit with the Torah. (As modern science and mathematics has achieved)

Further to that, I challenge anyone who can verify the golden ratio phi and the natural base e to a significant precision. (Also as modern science and mathematics has achieved)

I challenge anyone who can obtain the entire human genome from the Torah. (Also as modern science has achieved)

The first and last item possibly require the Torah to be much much longer than it currently is, simply because there is just too much information. Now, if it cannot give those, how can all science be derived from it and it alone?

And how big would you say the Torah is? It says in the Talmud that Torah is 3200 times the size of the universe. (Make of that what you will).

Where to begin? Firstly, how do you contain something which is "3200 times larger" than something within the thing of which it is larger? Next, the universe is infinite and forever expanding, so therefore that is a hilariously flawed statement at every syllable.

That is exactly my point. Like G-d, the Torah is greater than the universe, hence the entirety of the universe is contained within it.

Btw, going back to Cantor and infinity, why do you think Cantor used alephs for his orders of infinity? I saw a hypothesis which suggests that aleph stands for Ein Sof (no end), which is the name used to describe the infiniteness of G-d. Also Cantor himself identified the Absolute Infinite with G-d.

He used the alephs because all of the cool greek letters were taken.

Seriously, your argument was, "he used a hebrew letter, therefore it was God!!1111"?

And read the edited version of that post where I further explain how stupid the statement is.

Like I said, Cantor identified Absolute infinite with G-d, which is exactly what Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai did. Hence, an elemental link at the very least.

Secondly, G-d (and hence the Torah) is greater than the infinite universe, just like Absolute infinity (G-d) is greater than the infinity of integers. (Interesting how two separate strands of this argument came together there.)

[ninwa]

So how is the human genome supposed to have be documented in the Torah? Is there a section devoted to it or something?

Your only argument so far has been that the Torah is (supposedly) big enough.

EDIT: nevermind, I know I won't get an answer to this question.

Another question then. All the sources I read said that Yochanan ben Zakkai devoted his entire life to studying the Torah. How is it then that the only contribution (and even that is doubtful) he ever made was to the concept of infinity?

Either the Torah doesn't contain knowledge, or the knowledge it supposedly contains is too difficult to decipher. In which case, explain to me how that could possibly contribute to the development of anything. If you can't even understand it in the first place how is it supposed to help you?

[enwiabe]

I challenge anyone who can verify pi to the billionth digit with the Torah. (As modern science and mathematics has achieved)

Further to that, I challenge anyone who can verify the golden ratio phi and the natural base e to a significant precision. (Also as modern science and mathematics has achieved)

I challenge anyone who can obtain the entire human genome from the Torah. (Also as modern science has achieved)

The first and last item possibly require the Torah to be much much longer than it currently is, simply because there is just too much information. Now, if it cannot give those, how can all science be derived from it and it alone?

And how big would you say the Torah is? It says in the Talmud that Torah is 3200 times the size of the universe. (Make of that what you will).

Where to begin? Firstly, how do you contain something which is "3200 times larger" than something within the thing of which it is larger? Next, the universe is infinite and forever expanding, so therefore that is a hilariously flawed statement at every syllable.

That is exactly my point. Like G-d, the Torah is greater than the universe, hence the entirety of the universe is contained within it.

Btw, going back to Cantor and infinity, why do you think Cantor used alephs for his orders of infinity? I saw a hypothesis which suggests that aleph stands for Ein Sof (no end), which is the name used to describe the infiniteness of G-d. Also Cantor himself identified the Absolute Infinite with G-d.

He used the alephs because all of the cool greek letters were taken.

Seriously, your argument was, "he used a hebrew letter, therefore it was God!!1111"?

And read the edited version of that post where I further explain how stupid the statement is.

Like I said, Cantor identified Absolute infinite with G-d, which is exactly what Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai did. Hence, an elemental link at the very least.

Secondly, G-d (and hence the Torah) is greater than the infinite universe, just like Absolute infinity (G-d) is greater than the infinity of integers. (Interesting how two separate strands of this argument came together there.)

Er, Cantor never "proved" absolute infinite meant god. So no, that argument holds no water. You can't come to a mathematical debate with "x famous person did this, then said it was god" - you need logic and proof. And no, it's not interesting in the SLIGHTEST that the assertion that the torah is greater than the infinite universe and absolute infinity is greater than the infinity of integers are related. There is no logical link. The latter is a fact, but the former is an absurd, unfounded, ridiculous claim, and nothing more. Learn logic, then use it. Then you will have actual credibility. Not, "this finite book which I claim to be infinite told me so".

The torah has a finite number of books, a finite number of verses, words, letters, ink... It's 100% finite. Very countable. I challenge you to prove otherwise

[Yitzi_K]

So how is the human genome supposed to have be documented in the Torah? Is there a section devoted to it or something?

Your only argument so far has been that the Torah is (supposedly) big enough.

I've already answered this question, as you well know. It's not explicit, but it can be derived.

It all comes back to the saying: 'G-d looked into the Torah and created the world'. If G-d used the Torah as a blueprint for creation, and humans were a part of this creation, then of the course the human genome must be in there somewhere.

[Cthulhu]

Where did the Torah come from?

[enwiabe]

So how is the human genome supposed to have be documented in the Torah? Is there a section devoted to it or something?

Your only argument so far has been that the Torah is (supposedly) big enough.

I've already answered this question, as you well know. It's not explicit, but it can be derived.

It all comes back to the saying: 'G-d looked into the Torah and created the world'. If G-d used the Torah as a blueprint for creation, and humans were a part of this creation, then of the course the human genome must be in there somewhere.

Where?

[Yitzi_K]

I challenge anyone who can verify pi to the billionth digit with the Torah. (As modern science and mathematics has achieved)

Further to that, I challenge anyone who can verify the golden ratio phi and the natural base e to a significant precision. (Also as modern science and mathematics has achieved)

I challenge anyone who can obtain the entire human genome from the Torah. (Also as modern science has achieved)

The first and last item possibly require the Torah to be much much longer than it currently is, simply because there is just too much information. Now, if it cannot give those, how can all science be derived from it and it alone?

And how big would you say the Torah is? It says in the Talmud that Torah is 3200 times the size of the universe. (Make of that what you will).

Where to begin? Firstly, how do you contain something which is "3200 times larger" than something within the thing of which it is larger? Next, the universe is infinite and forever expanding, so therefore that is a hilariously flawed statement at every syllable.

That is exactly my point. Like G-d, the Torah is greater than the universe, hence the entirety of the universe is contained within it.

Btw, going back to Cantor and infinity, why do you think Cantor used alephs for his orders of infinity? I saw a hypothesis which suggests that aleph stands for Ein Sof (no end), which is the name used to describe the infiniteness of G-d. Also Cantor himself identified the Absolute Infinite with G-d.

He used the alephs because all of the cool greek letters were taken.

Seriously, your argument was, "he used a hebrew letter, therefore it was God!!1111"?

And read the edited version of that post where I further explain how stupid the statement is.

Like I said, Cantor identified Absolute infinite with G-d, which is exactly what Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai did. Hence, an elemental link at the very least.

Secondly, G-d (and hence the Torah) is greater than the infinite universe, just like Absolute infinity (G-d) is greater than the infinity of integers. (Interesting how two separate strands of this argument came together there.)

Er, Cantor never "proved" absolute infinite meant god. So no, that argument holds no water. You can't come to a mathematical debate with "x famous person did this, then said it was god" - you need logic and proof. And no, it's not interesting in the SLIGHTEST that the assertion that the torah is greater than the infinite universe and absolute infinity is greater than the infinity of integers are related. There is no logical link. The latter is a fact, but the former is an absurd, unfounded, ridiculous claim, and nothing more. Learn logic, then use it. Then you will have actual credibility. Not, "this finite book which I claim to be infinite told me so"

Your question was, how can the Torah be greater than the infinite universe. My answer was, some things can be more infinite than other, as Cantor proved.

[ninwa]

So how is the human genome supposed to have be documented in the Torah? Is there a section devoted to it or something?

Your only argument so far has been that the Torah is (supposedly) big enough.

I've already answered this question, as you well know. It's not explicit, but it can be derived.

Edited my post.

[Yitzi_K]

Where did the Torah come from?

G-d.

So how is the human genome supposed to have be documented in the Torah? Is there a section devoted to it or something?

Your only argument so far has been that the Torah is (supposedly) big enough.

I've already answered this question, as you well know. It's not explicit, but it can be derived.

It all comes back to the saying: 'G-d looked into the Torah and created the world'. If G-d used the Torah as a blueprint for creation, and humans were a part of this creation, then of the course the human genome must be in there somewhere.

Where?

I don't know. Like I said, the Torah is infinite, so there's a heck of a lot to search through.

[enwiabe]

I challenge anyone who can verify pi to the billionth digit with the Torah. (As modern science and mathematics has achieved)

Further to that, I challenge anyone who can verify the golden ratio phi and the natural base e to a significant precision. (Also as modern science and mathematics has achieved)

I challenge anyone who can obtain the entire human genome from the Torah. (Also as modern science has achieved)

The first and last item possibly require the Torah to be much much longer than it currently is, simply because there is just too much information. Now, if it cannot give those, how can all science be derived from it and it alone?

And how big would you say the Torah is? It says in the Talmud that Torah is 3200 times the size of the universe. (Make of that what you will).

Where to begin? Firstly, how do you contain something which is "3200 times larger" than something within the thing of which it is larger? Next, the universe is infinite and forever expanding, so therefore that is a hilariously flawed statement at every syllable.

That is exactly my point. Like G-d, the Torah is greater than the universe, hence the entirety of the universe is contained within it.

Btw, going back to Cantor and infinity, why do you think Cantor used alephs for his orders of infinity? I saw a hypothesis which suggests that aleph stands for Ein Sof (no end), which is the name used to describe the infiniteness of G-d. Also Cantor himself identified the Absolute Infinite with G-d.

He used the alephs because all of the cool greek letters were taken.

Seriously, your argument was, "he used a hebrew letter, therefore it was God!!1111"?

And read the edited version of that post where I further explain how stupid the statement is.

Like I said, Cantor identified Absolute infinite with G-d, which is exactly what Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai did. Hence, an elemental link at the very least.

Secondly, G-d (and hence the Torah) is greater than the infinite universe, just like Absolute infinity (G-d) is greater than the infinity of integers. (Interesting how two separate strands of this argument came together there.)

Er, Cantor never "proved" absolute infinite meant god. So no, that argument holds no water. You can't come to a mathematical debate with "x famous person did this, then said it was god" - you need logic and proof. And no, it's not interesting in the SLIGHTEST that the assertion that the torah is greater than the infinite universe and absolute infinity is greater than the infinity of integers are related. There is no logical link. The latter is a fact, but the former is an absurd, unfounded, ridiculous claim, and nothing more. Learn logic, then use it. Then you will have actual credibility. Not, "this finite book which I claim to be infinite told me so"

Your question was, how can the Torah be greater than the infinite universe. My answer was, some things can be more infinite than other, as Cantor proved.

Sure, but as I just showed, the Torah is wholly countable.

...

And Cantor also showed that things which are more infinite than other things cannot be contained within the things which they are greater than.

E.g. the real numbers are more infinite than the set of integers, and the set of integers can therefore not possibly contain the real numbers.

Similarly, "the torah is more infinite than the universe" whilst several copies of the torah are contained within the universe makes no sense whatsoever.

I'm sure you will somehow make another ridiculous leap to try and reconcile this with your exceedingly narrow worldview. I have my popcorn, so please, I'm waiting to hear this one!

[Cthulhu]

So even God needs blueprints?

[Yitzi_K]

So how is the human genome supposed to have be documented in the Torah? Is there a section devoted to it or something?

Your only argument so far has been that the Torah is (supposedly) big enough.

EDIT: nevermind, I know I won't get an answer to this question.

Another question then. All the sources I read said that Yochanan ben Zakkai devoted his entire life to studying the Torah. How is it then that the only contribution (and even that is doubtful) he ever made was to the concept of infinity?

Either the Torah doesn't contain knowledge, or the knowledge it supposedly contains is too difficult to decipher. In which case, explain to me how that could possibly contribute to the development of anything. If you can't even understand it in the first place how is it supposed to help you?

He actually made many vast contributions to understanding of life, the universe and everything. Learn sefer Zohar to see what I mean.


The torah has a finite number of books, a finite number of verses, words, letters, ink... It's 100% finite. Very countable. I challenge you to prove otherwise

-Not true. More books are constantly being written, as they will ad infinitum. That's like saying that numbers are not infinite, because we have numbers written in books with ink. Just because a finite amount has thus far been committed to paper, does not preclude the possibility that an infinite amount is out there.

The 'Torah' does not simply mean the book of the Bible, available on amazon. It means far, far more than that, and I encourage you to study it a little and see that for yourself.

[ninwa]

He actually made many vast contributions to understanding of life, the universe and everything. Learn sefer Zohar to see what I mean.

Such as?

Surely there are definite examples you can provide beyond "read this material to find out".

[enwiabe]

So how is the human genome supposed to have be documented in the Torah? Is there a section devoted to it or something?

Your only argument so far has been that the Torah is (supposedly) big enough.

EDIT: nevermind, I know I won't get an answer to this question.

Another question then. All the sources I read said that Yochanan ben Zakkai devoted his entire life to studying the Torah. How is it then that the only contribution (and even that is doubtful) he ever made was to the concept of infinity?

Either the Torah doesn't contain knowledge, or the knowledge it supposedly contains is too difficult to decipher. In which case, explain to me how that could possibly contribute to the development of anything. If you can't even understand it in the first place how is it supposed to help you?

He actually made many vast contributions to understanding of life, the universe and everything. Learn sefer Zohar to see what I mean.


The torah has a finite number of books, a finite number of verses, words, letters, ink... It's 100% finite. Very countable. I challenge you to prove otherwise

-Not true. More books are constantly being written, as they will ad infinitum. That's like saying that numbers are not infinite, because we have numbers written in books with ink. Just because a finite amount has thus far been committed to paper, does not preclude the possibility that an infinite amount is out there.

The 'Torah' does not simply mean the book of the Bible, available on amazon. It means far, far more than that, and I encourage you to study it a little and see that for yourself.

No matter how many books are written, they'll always be countable in number... Same with their verses etc. they won't magically transcend into uncountable infinity, because at each step you can associate a unique, 1:1 function mapping natural numbers to verse/book/word etc.

I implore you to have an understanding of what 'countable' actually means...

And I studied the Torah plenty before deciding it was most likely bunkum and fairytale.

[enwiabe]

Not true. More books are constantly being written, as they will ad infinitum.

Yet another contradiction in terms. I thought the Torah was 3200 times bigger? If more shit keeps getting written, would not this number inflate? Of course you're already breaking so many rules of Mathematics here in the first place, but sure, let's go for gold!