Ultra-Orthodox a growing burden on Israel

[enwiabe]

http://www.theage.com.au/world/israels-ultraorthodox-a-growing-burden-on-the-state-20100813-1236a.html

Wow, never knew about this problem. Reckon they should be forced to try to get jobs?

[schmalex]

This is what I mean when I say that having religion govern politics never really works out well. You can justify just about anything with religious arguments.

I think that if they want to live that lifestyle they should support themselves without government payments, like the Amish people in the States, who I believe don't accept social security payments.

[Chavi]

Enwiabe, as a bialik graduate, you should be fully aware that this issue is hotly debated within Israel and in the Israeli press. Here it is simply irrelevant.

By opening up this issue for discussion on a vce-related forum you're just inviting a wave of knee-jerk antisemitism and anti-israel vitriol. Clearly, if you're unaware of Israel's social problems, there are other places to go for info - rather than professing ignorance and naively posting an article from a media outlet with a clear anti-zionist agenda.

Not impressed.

[Cthulhu]

Enwiabe, as a bialik graduate, you should be fully aware that this issue is hotly debated within Israel and in the Israeli press. Here it is simply irrelevant.

By opening up this issue for discussion on a vce-related forum you're just inviting a wave of knee-jerk antisemitism and anti-israel vitriol. Clearly, if you're unaware of Israel's social problems, there are other places to go for info - rather than professing ignorance and naively posting an article from a media outlet with a clear anti-zionist agenda.

Not impressed.

Posting news related to politics in the news and politics section?
HOW DARE YOU, ENWIABE.

[Chavi]

Enwiabe, as a bialik graduate, you should be fully aware that this issue is hotly debated within Israel and in the Israeli press. Here it is simply irrelevant.

By opening up this issue for discussion on a vce-related forum you're just inviting a wave of knee-jerk antisemitism and anti-israel vitriol. Clearly, if you're unaware of Israel's social problems, there are other places to go for info - rather than professing ignorance and naively posting an article from a media outlet with a clear anti-zionist agenda.

Not impressed.

Posting news related to politics in the news and politics section?
HOW DARE YOU, ENWIABE.

You have to examine the intent here. For some reason, VCEnotes focuses disproportionately on Israel, and the themes discussed have no relevance whatsoever for most of the readers. Also this issue doesn't fit under news nor politics - it's been a hotly debated religious issue in Israel for the past 35 years. The question is, why this makes headlines in The Age, and here as well.

[Cthulhu]

Enwiabe, as a bialik graduate, you should be fully aware that this issue is hotly debated within Israel and in the Israeli press. Here it is simply irrelevant.

By opening up this issue for discussion on a vce-related forum you're just inviting a wave of knee-jerk antisemitism and anti-israel vitriol. Clearly, if you're unaware of Israel's social problems, there are other places to go for info - rather than professing ignorance and naively posting an article from a media outlet with a clear anti-zionist agenda.

Not impressed.

Posting news related to politics in the news and politics section?
HOW DARE YOU, ENWIABE.

You have to examine the intent here. For some reason, VCEnotes focuses disproportionately on Israel, and the themes discussed have no relevance whatsoever for most of the readers. Also this issue doesn't fit under news nor politics - it's been a hotly debated religious issue in Israel for the past 35 years. The question is, why this makes headlines in The Age, and here as well.

How do you know what readers here find relevant? It's not your job to decide if something is news or not. Sure news from Israel gets posted a lot here but who cares? A lot of stuff happens in Israel and maybe people are actually interested in it.

I'm glad enwiabe posted this. I would never had learned about ultra-orthodox issues in Israel if he hadn't. "But why does that concern you Cthulhu?" because I like to learn about different countries and their issues.

And as for The Age publishing it: Maybe it's new news for Australia?

Not everything posted about Israel has anti-semitic or anti-zionist intent you're just trying to cause trouble.

[Chavi]

There is a clear double standard here. It's not that a lot of stuff happens in Israel, it's just the country has one of the highest journalists per capita rates, and when there is nothing going on, they need to fill some space, in order to justify their paychecks before being posted to Europe.

And in case you are really interested in middle east issues, do some research into the background and history of the conflict, rather than forming opinions based on soundbytes.

Here's something to start you off:
http://www.science.co.il/israel-history.asp
http://www.palestinefacts.org/

[wildareal]

They should totally come to Victoria, with their excellent Hebrew knowledge they can get a 50+ scaled here no worries.

[enwiabe]

Enwiabe, as a bialik graduate, you should be fully aware that this issue is hotly debated within Israel and in the Israeli press. Here it is simply irrelevant.

By opening up this issue for discussion on a vce-related forum you're just inviting a wave of knee-jerk antisemitism and anti-israel vitriol. Clearly, if you're unaware of Israel's social problems, there are other places to go for info - rather than professing ignorance and naively posting an article from a media outlet with a clear anti-zionist agenda.

Not impressed.

This is a very paranoid response. I found the article interesting because you're right - we don't experience anything like this in Australia. It's a very different phenomenon and thought it might be of general interest to forum goers, and so I shared it. I don't know about you, but I don't just stick to what I know. I don't just take an interest in issues which ONLY affect me. I am sure many people on this forum are the same. It's almost xenophobic to say that people should stick to their own issues in their own part of the world.

This sentence that you wrote is quite disturbing: "By opening up this issue for discussion on a vce-related forum you're just inviting a wave of knee-jerk antisemitism and anti-israel vitriol" - you're basically saying that most VCE students are anti-semitic or anti-Israel? That is most distressing, because I can assure you that this is not the case. I cannot imagine how, or why, you would think such a thing and I think that is quite slanderous to pretty much everyone in year 11 and 12. As you might have seen already from the replies, no such thing has taken place. Not even slightly, so perhaps you might apologise for jumping to such conclusions about the VN community.

And also, I fail to see how the article is anti-Israel. It's discussing a significant problem for the Israeli government. I would call that a sympathetic argument. If anything, the article humanises Israel as a country with nuance, rather than the black and white conveyance that sometimes occurs of "rarara kill palestinians rararara". Rather, it shows Israel is like Australia, with large problems (but obviously not the same problems) and no clear solutions. They're worried about the economic drain of the ultra-orthodox, and we're worried about the economic drain of a big Australia, etc. It's funny, because the clear message from the ZCV (Zionist Council of Victoria) to combat anti-zionism/anti-semitism is to educate more people about Israel. But as soon as somebody writes an article that reveals an important piece in the context puzzle of Israel's political environment, you say it is somehow anti-semitic? That is absurd. You might even say that that is a knee-jerk reaction of your own...

FYI - I knew that many ultra-orthodox in Israel devote their life to studying in yeshivas, but I never knew that this lifestyle was subsidised by the Israeli gov't. So yes, I was surprised to learn this. Going through a Jewish school doesn't mean you learn every single thing about Judaism and Israel.

[Mao]

I personally do not know any antisemitic/anti-israel/anti-zionist people, not in VCE, not at uni, not ever. I do, however, know many who are anti-extremist/anti-radical. I'm fairly sure that is the general experience of most people, so this so called 'knee-jerk antisemitism' will be more like general criticism focussed on extremists/radicals/ultra-orthodox, and not a consensus that says 'all jews are bad'.

[ninwa]

You have to examine the intent here. For some reason, VCEnotes focuses disproportionately on Israel

Oh please, what utter self-victimising crap.

[Glockmeister]

Enwiabe, as a bialik graduate, you should be fully aware that this issue is hotly debated within Israel and in the Israeli press. Here it is simply irrelevant.

By opening up this issue for discussion on a vce-related forum you're just inviting a wave of knee-jerk antisemitism and anti-israel vitriol. Clearly, if you're unaware of Israel's social problems, there are other places to go for info - rather than professing ignorance and naively posting an article from a media outlet with a clear anti-zionist agenda.

Not impressed.

This is a very paranoid response. I found the article interesting because you're right - we don't experience anything like this in Australia. It's a very different phenomenon and thought it might be of general interest to forum goers, and so I shared it. I don't know about you, but I don't just stick to what I know. I don't just take an interest in issues which ONLY affect me. I am sure many people on this forum are the same. It's almost xenophobic to say that people should stick to their own issues in their own part of the world.

This sentence that you wrote is quite disturbing: "By opening up this issue for discussion on a vce-related forum you're just inviting a wave of knee-jerk antisemitism and anti-israel vitriol" - you're basically saying that most VCE students are anti-semitic or anti-Israel? That is most distressing, because I can assure you that this is not the case. I cannot imagine how, or why, you would think such a thing and I think that is quite slanderous to pretty much everyone in year 11 and 12. As you might have seen already from the replies, no such thing has taken place. Not even slightly, so perhaps you might apologise for jumping to such conclusions about the VN community.

And also, I fail to see how the article is anti-Israel. It's discussing a significant problem for the Israeli government. I would call that a sympathetic argument. If anything, the article humanises Israel as a country with nuance, rather than the black and white conveyance that sometimes occurs of "rarara kill palestinians rararara". Rather, it shows Israel is like Australia, with large problems (but obviously not the same problems) and no clear solutions. They're worried about the economic drain of the ultra-orthodox, and we're worried about the economic drain of a big Australia, etc. It's funny, because the clear message from the ZCV (Zionist Council of Victoria) to combat anti-zionism/anti-semitism is to educate more people about Israel. But as soon as somebody writes an article that reveals an important piece in the context puzzle of Israel's political environment, you say it is somehow anti-semitic? That is absurd. You might even say that that is a knee-jerk reaction of your own...

FYI - I knew that many ultra-orthodox in Israel devote their life to studying in yeshivas, but I never knew that this lifestyle was subsidised by the Israeli gov't. So yes, I was surprised to learn this. Going through a Jewish school doesn't mean you learn every single thing about Judaism and Israel.

To add my two cents.

The nature of the world today, and in particular, Australia's involvement in world affairs means that whatever happens in the world has relevance here. Whether or not you disagree with the whole notions of globalisation or not, that is simply the reality of what's happening. So it's appropriate for enwiabe has posted this article. If you think that this article (which I haven't had the chance to read) is somehow 'anti-Semitic ', then feel free to post your opinion, that stimulates debate. But if you can't justify it, expect to get a thrashing from other posters. That is the nature of this board which has gave rise to great, enjoyable debates.

[sillysmile]

why are people here so offensive? sometimes you just have to accept the fact that not everybody has the same opinions. But yeah, it does seem quite silly to have such an "ultra orthodox" educational predominance. 

[wildareal]

I personally do not know any antisemitic/anti-israel/anti-zionist people, not in VCE, not at uni, not ever. I do, however, know many who are anti-extremist/anti-radical. I'm fairly sure that is the general experience of most people, so this so called 'knee-jerk antisemitism' will be more like general criticism focussed on extremists/radicals/ultra-orthodox, and not a consensus that says 'all jews are bad'.

In accordance with Mao, and all jokes aside, does Chavi honestly believe that VCEnotes is run by nazis? We live in a multinational society, and I'm sure VCE notes has students from a wide range of nationalities who have acclimatised to the way of life here. It's also important to understand that this ultra-orthodox 'burden' is not just a problem endemic to Israel, but also to many other countries were religion is the be all and end all-Iraq/Iran to name a few. The lesson to be learned here is that excess in anything is bad.

[Chavi]

The general experience is that whenever Israel comes up, a disparate and often vicious wave of delegitimization spews forth, that has nothing to do with the issue discussed. [case point http://blog.camera.org/archives/2010/08/post_63.html]

The freedom of ideas and open debate is not being questioned - I'm more interested in the types of responses you intentionally/unintentionally encourage by posting an article on Israel that portrays the country in negative light. And whilst I agree with the ZCV's approach, this article does nothing but malign an entire segment of Israeli society.