DNA evidence that Hitler was Jewish?

[Cthulhu]

I don't know about you guys but I'm a whaler on the moon and I carry a harpoon I was rather disgruntled to find out there ain't no whales. So now I just tell tall tales and sing my whaling tunes.

Dude, c'mon, you can't put everything you don't like under the banner of anti-semitism. This is getting old now.

This.

We're pangaeans, we're from the sea. We're from the solar nebula, we're from the stars.

We're starstuff!

[Yitzi_K]

LOL you just called Chavi anti-semitic, smooooooth

No I didn't. He just (perhaps naively) posted something he found interesting, I wouldn't call that propagating the myth.

Dude, c'mon, you can't put everything you don't like under the banner of anti-semitism. This is getting old now.

You talking to me? When have I ever done it before?

[Russ]

I still want to know why you don't consider it compelling evidence...

[ninwa]

LOL you just called Chavi anti-semitic, smooooooth

No I didn't. He just (perhaps naively) posted something he found interesting, I wouldn't call that propagating the myth.

Sigh.

It's a myth, propagated by anti-semites

PS. I don't subscribe to conspiracy theories - but this news was too compelling to pass over.

who can therefore claim that it wasn't gentiles who did the Holocaust, it was Jews, and therefore it's all our own fault and we can't blame anyone else.

If these DNA tests are conclusively proven. . . then it just proves the premise that behind every anti-semitic organization, behind every tyrant that has risen to destroy the Jewish people. . . lies a disgruntled Jew. From Pablo Christiani to Goldstone to Dathan and Aviram, to ... Hitler? I guess we are our own worst enemy.

Whatever, I know you'll come up with something like "but that's not what I meant!!!" and nobody can refute that. I think saying anything that you don't like is "anti-semitic" is a massive copout, and also dilutes the seriousness of actual anti-semitism. If you are so unreserved in your use of that term, then it will gradually become less and less of a bad thing if every person and his dog is an anti-Semite.

I'd love to see why you think the DNA evidence is bullshit.

[Chavi]

Yitzi, I think ninwa addressed your main concern sufficiently. Read 'Hitler's willing executioners', and Robert Wistrich's book on Antisemitism - most Germans and Europeans collaborated with the Nazis. 2000 years of religious Christian antisemitism provided the fertile conditions for genocide. Couple this with Germany's humiliation post-Versailles, and the economic situation, and Germans were willing to swallow anything. Hitler is the figurehead, all of Europe facilitated the death of 6 million ....

And no, this isn't naivety - we have both received the same education - 'yizkor' - both inside and outside the edu system. I wanted to show that those that often turn against our people, are mistakenly turning against themselves. Antisemitism begins with Jews, but rarely ends with Jews.

[Russ]

Yitzi, I think ninwa addressed your main concern sufficiently. Read 'Hitler's willing executioners' - most Germans and Europeans collaborated with the Nazis. Hitler is the figurehead, Europe facilitated the death of 6 million ....

You can include the Americans as well, they contributed a significant amount of prewar funding

[Chavi]

Yitzi, I think ninwa addressed your main concern sufficiently. Read 'Hitler's willing executioners' - most Germans and Europeans collaborated with the Nazis. Hitler is the figurehead, Europe facilitated the death of 6 million ....

You can include the Americans as well, there was a lot of prewar funding.

That's stretching it - although Elie Wiesel does implicitly ask why American planes flew over Aushwitz as early as '44 and failed to bomb the site?

[Russ]

I was referring more to the fact that, prior to the war, eugenics was the hot political science topic and the Americans were researching it alongside Germany. You get a lot of conspiracy stuff, claiming America secretly supported the Nazi ideal but i'm not a (modern) history student so I'll leave that alone.

Never heard of that Auschwitz thing until you mentioned it. The only reason I know about this is because we study eugenics and population control as part of genetics.

[TrueLight]

Dude, c'mon, you can't put everything you don't like under the banner of anti-semitism. This is getting old now.

when i read your comment ... it reminded me of this video i watched a while back
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW3a1bw5XlE

[Yitzi_K]

RE the DNA thing: I'm no expert, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the existence in a person's DNA of a particular gene which also happens to be common to a particular ethnic group, is not proof of that person being a member or descendant of said ethnic group.

In any case, the 'Was Hitler Jewish' myth has been thoroughly debunked time and time again.

then it just proves the premise that behind every anti-semitic organization, behind every tyrant that has risen to destroy the Jewish people. . . lies a disgruntled Jew.

Antisemitism begins with Jews, but rarely ends with Jews.

I find these comments to be highly foolish, not to mention dangerous. To suggest that every anti-semitic organisation was started by a Jew, and that Jews are at the core of all cases of anti-semitism, a) is completely and utterly wrong and b) gives rise to further anti-semitism by (somewhat) legitimising it.

Jews are not the main root of anti-semitism. Anti-semites are. That's not to say that some members of the latter group cannot be members of the former, but by no means does it apply to all of them.

[Yitzi_K]

Dude, c'mon, you can't put everything you don't like under the banner of anti-semitism. This is getting old now.

when i read your comment ... it reminded me of this video i watched a while back
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW3a1bw5XlE

pfft Shulamit Aloni is a member of Yesh Din and Peace Now. That just about destroys her credibility. Those organisations would spread any lie to make Israel look bad, as shown by that video. You have to learn to judge the credibility of your sources.

[Chavi]

Yitzi, obviously I didn't mean it that way, even if I failed to enunciate myself properly. The high proportion of Jews who are willing to side against their own is baffling- and the fact that this is repeated time and time again throughout history, is the point I'm trying to make. [And which is currently being hotly debated within the Hebrew press as well, and feature in some of these talkbacks (http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/148/733.html)]

Antisemitism begins with Jews, but rarely ends with Jews.

And in regards to the second point, I was referring to the fact that whilst antisemitism is originally directed at Jews, it eventually widens to encompass many more. Case point: Poles, communists, Gypsies, blacks and homosexuals were also heavily persecuted during the Holocaust under the banner of antisemitism.. Perhaps you misread this as: Jews start antisemitism - this is of course ludicrous, and you have jumped too quickly to the wrong conclusion, and too quickly to judge.

[Glockmeister]

RE the DNA thing: I'm no expert, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the existence in a person's DNA of a particular gene which also happens to be common to a particular ethnic group, is not proof of that person being a member or descendant of said ethnic group.

Well, I'm not a particular expert on genetics either, but I've done a bit of molecular biology, so I'll try my best to do justice to this.

What scientists do is they take mitochondria DNA, which is generally exclusively female inherited (so that only DNA from the female is inherited) and trace this back through the maternal lineage. That is one factor that makes it ideal for this sort of research, that is to be able to trace a person's heritage from their maternal side. Hence, we have used this idea to further provide evidence for the 'Out of Africa' theory, for example.

So there's definitely solid science in terms of being able to do this tracing thing. Whether this study is actually a good study, I'm not sure. I'd have to read the original study itself to get a feel for it.

[Russ]

What scientists do is they take mitochondria DNA, which is generally exclusively female inherited (so that only DNA from the female is inherited) and trace this back through the maternal lineage. That is one factor that makes it ideal for this sort of research, that is to be able to trace a person's heritage from their maternal side. Hence, we have used this idea to further provide evidence for the 'Out of Africa' theory, for example.

Yes, except this study revealed a Y-chromosomal group rather than mitochondrial DNA.

Whilst it's true that this certainly does not prove Hitler was "Jewish", you absolutely cannot say that the evidence is nonsense. It is definitely evidence of a potential connection between Hitler and Jewish parents (or ancestors more likely), especially given that this specific haplogroup appears to be one of the definitive ones.

[Glockmeister]

Hmm.. geneticists tend to prefer using mitochondrial DNA for this sort of work, but it wikipedia does say that this is a Y-chromosome haplogroup.

In any case, according to the evidence, we are ultimately Africans anyway.