Poll: Should Turkey Join the EU?

[Chavi]

Turkey has been a strong contender to join the European Union for over a decade. However, in the past couple of years, analysts have seen a growing trend of radicalization within the country, as well as increasing links with international pariah states such as Syria and Iran.

The arguments in favour and against:

In favour: Turkey has a modern, advanced economy, and is a member of NATO - meaning it already holds key membership with Western countries. Turkey's main export partners are European countries - an EU membership would remove border tariffs and trade-restrictions. It also forms a bridge between the Middle-East and Europe, and has strategic importance in the area. http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=66229

Against: Ever since Erdoğan and the AKP took power 2003, relations between Turkey and the West have soured. Erdoğan's foreign policy has alienated Turkey's closest allies - especially Israel - and has moved the country into the Iranian sphere. The Turkish government was also complicit in funding the Gaza flotilla fiasco. On top of this, Turkey still maintains an unrecognized occupation of Northern Cyprus and Kurdistan - and also refuses to recognize the Armenian genocide (quite a few countries - including Israel haven't recognized the genocide either for political reasons). European countries are also worried that Turkey's membership will spell an influx of unskilled migrants into the continent - further exacerbating social and economic tensions. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/nov/7/greece-frets-over-turkeys-ties-to-iran/

[Yitzi_K]

Absolutely not until they have demonstrated that there is no chance of them moving towards a radical Islamic country. As it is, with Erdogan in charge, the country is becoming more and more Islamist, so under the current government, certainly not.

[Gloamglozer]

Another against would be because Turkey is the "bridge" to the Middle East, European countries may be reluctant to join in in the conflict, perhaps?

[Hutchoo]

Absolutely not until they have demonstrated that there is no chance of them moving towards a radical Islamic country. As it is, with Erdogan in charge, the country is becoming more and more Islamist, so under the current government, certainly not.

This.

[Chavi]

Another against would be because Turkey is the "bridge" to the Middle East, European countries may be reluctant to join in in the conflict, perhaps?

Ok, playing the devil's advocate - Turkey can be considered somewhere in the middle. It participates in many European forums and competitions (such as Eurovision), and has a small landmass located in Europe proper.

Also the conflict point is an interesting one - however, if Turkey becomes embroiled in a war, I doubt that Europe will come to it's aid. There is no EU defence pact (as far as I'm aware) - there is however a combined 'military' that shares training and security obligations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_European_Union

But ye - if Turkey aligns itself with Iran - then it essentially invites terrorism into the European mainland.

[Chavi]

Actually, Turkey is applying for EU membership on the basis of their geographical location. For a country to join the EU, it must meet the Copenhagen criteria: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_criteria) - that includes holding sovereign territory within Europe.
It turns out that 3% of Turkey's landmass lies within the geographical boundaries of Europe, which makes it eligible (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Thrace)
-On a side note, Morocco and Israel are unable to apply for EU membership for not holding any land within Europe proper - despite meeting most of the Copenhagen requirements.


If anyone is interested, also check out this long read: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=COM:2007:0663:FIN:EN:PDF

The situation in Turkey with regard to minority rights remains unchanged. There has been no
progress on alignment of Turkish practices with European standards. Restrictions on the
exercise of cultural rights continue, in particular as regards the use of languages other than
Turkish in broadcasting, in political life and when accessing public services. There are no
opportunities to learn Kurdish in the public or private schooling systems. The Roma
experience discriminatory treatment in access to adequate housing, education, social
protection, health and employment. Forced evictions remain a serious problem.

Turkey has not fulfilled its obligation of full non-discriminatory implementation of
the Additional Protocol to the Association Agreement nor made progress towards
normalisation of bilateral relations with the Republic of Cyprus.

Otherwise, I basically agree with the unanimous opinion that Turkey has chosen the path of Islamism and supporting terror, rather than peace and westernization.
I have also observed that some of the most radical, anti-western elements coming out of the Middle East originate in Turkey. Particularly the terrorist organization IHH - which masquerades as an "aid" organization - as so many Muslim charities so often do. I think these alone disqualify Turkey from entering Europe.

[Souljette_93]

Particularly the terrorist organization IHH - which masquerades as an "aid" organization - as so many Muslim charities so often do. I think these alone disqualify Turkey from entering Europe.

 


We are not going to get into this again, are we?

[Chavi]

Particularly the terrorist organization IHH - which masquerades as an "aid" organization - as so many Muslim charities so often do. I think these alone disqualify Turkey from entering Europe.

 


We are not going to get into this again, are we?

I'm presenting the evidence. It's your choice if you wish to debate me on it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IHH_%28Turkish_NGO%29#Allegations_of_affiliations_with_terrorist_organizations

In an interview which aired on Kudüs Internet TV on June 17, 2010, Demet Tezcan, coordinator of the women's branch of İHH, stated that Israelis "are paranoid cowards, who definitely have a sick mentality ... Today, their danger is restricted to the Palestinian people alone, but tomorrow, all the countries and regions in their vicinity might become the target of this sick community’s paranoia, whether or not they have a reason... they are cowards, but what is most obvious is how sick they are. We must stop them because of their sickness. They are like a killing machine."

- Now what kind of a charity endorses such paranoid drivel? 

[pi]

Absolutely not until they have demonstrated that there is no chance of them moving towards a radical Islamic country. As it is, with Erdogan in charge, the country is becoming more and more Islamist, so under the current government, certainly not.

Seconded, I don't see how their current political scene can contribute positively and co-operate will with the other EU members.

[Kotza]

Lets take this at face value, disregarding all the deep-rooted political crap.

They are not Europeans. They do not have anything which resembles European culture. They, despite not being of Arabic decent (they are descendants of Mongolians), are as arabic as any other nation. There is no benefit of them being in the UN. 3% of territory being in Europe may meet the Copenhagen criteria but come on guys, 97% isnt!

[Chavi]

Check out this interesting article on opinions of Turkey joining the EU:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4298408.stm

In contrast, public opinion in most EU countries appears, with varying degrees of intensity, to oppose Turkish membership.

Reasons cited for opposition include: Turkey's large population (70 million and rising fast); its relative poverty and doubts about its cultural compatibility with Europe. The French, Germans and Austrians seem especially unhappy with the idea.

FRANCE: Has the largest percentage of Muslims (7%) in the EU. Officially backs Turkey's membership bid. But Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin says Turkey must first recognise Cyprus. However, Nicolas Sarkozy - leader of the ruling UMP party and likely future presidential candidate - is opposed. Only 20% of public opinion says Yes to Turkey joining. A leading political pundit, Guillaume Parmentier, says: "The Turkish elite has been European for centuries; but the vast democratic expansion of Turkey involves Anatolian peasants, who are not European by culture, tradition or habit". The French have been promised a referendum after the conclusion of negotiations.

GREECE: was under Ottoman occupation for more than 400 years. Some Greeks still regard Istanbul as a "Greek" city. Another country where politicians and public opinion diverge. Opinion polls suggest only 25% of Greeks believe Turkey has a place in the European Union. The government, meanwhile, is keen to resolve bilateral tensions through Turkish integration. But it says the fate of Turkey's EU application depends, primarily, on the Turks themselves - especially where recognition of Cyprus in concerned. .

[Souljette_93]

I'm presenting the evidence. It's your choice if you wish to debate me on it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IHH_%28Turkish_NGO%29#Allegations_of_affiliations_with_terrorist_organizations

In an interview which aired on Kudüs Internet TV on June 17, 2010, Demet Tezcan, coordinator of the women's branch of İHH, stated that Israelis "are paranoid cowards, who definitely have a sick mentality ... Today, their danger is restricted to the Palestinian people alone, but tomorrow, all the countries and regions in their vicinity might become the target of this sick community’s paranoia, whether or not they have a reason... they are cowards, but what is most obvious is how sick they are. We must stop them because of their sickness. They are like a killing machine."

- Now what kind of a charity endorses such paranoid drivel?

Yeah, i saw that before. It is quite clear that they are against Israel. But i believe it is justified when they see Israel doing this to the Palestinians:

[IMG]http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/7529/gazachildren.jpg[/img]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[IMG]http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/4552/gazachildren2.jpg[/img]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

They say a picture can say a thousand words. Do you literally think this is ok? What would you do if you saw your younger brother or sister, in that condition? And if you think this is okay-why are you upset about what IHH said? You think after seeing that, they will praise you? I have more of these photos..but i will leave them like that for now.

Anyway, what you showed as evidence was more of their Anti-Israel nature rather than them masquerading as an "aid" organisation.They are-I  don't think it's from their best interest to go out hurting people-even if it was Israel. It's even funny, because my friend told me that even if Israeli children were in need, they would go out helping them.

Biggest example, the flotilla attacks.  Here is what they have to say:

No. The ships are carrying humanitarian aid only. The flotilla will deliver things like medical aid, food, clothing items, prefabricated homes, children’s playgrounds, stationery items, iron bars, cement. There is not even a razor, knife or jackknife onboard.

Taken from: http://www.gazaflotilla.org/ (IHH owns this i believe)

And ye-notsomuch as a debate, keep it a discussion, before it turns ugly and the thread get's locked. Anyway,  i think i went off-topic. I just wanted to refute your claim, That's all.

[Chavi]

Yes. You went completely off topic - and you did this in the previous thread as well - to divert attention from the issue at hand so that you can flash your usual, predictable soundbites.

Those pictures seems like some of Pallywood's best - the same kid appearing in 20 photos with 20 different fathers - all to garner international sympathy from useful idiots who are ignorant about the conflict (uni is full of these). It's so funny to watch a funeral of terrorist broadcast live on PA TV, only to see him stand-up out of the coffin after the photos stop. This is was the aim of the Turkish flottila. This was the aim of IHH. To demonize Israel and gain as much international publicity as possible. What else can explain the 1 week media-stop in Cyprus before heading to Gaza to deliver the "urgent" aid.

Back to Turkey - remember that Turkey (Israel's former ally), had every opportunity to deliver as much aid as they wish to Gaza, through Egypt (El-Arish) or through Israel (Ashdod). And I read Ma'an enough to see the pictures of Gaza market overflowing with food, and Hamasnicks driving Audis in Rafah and Jabalyah, so don't give me any of that "poor, opressed Palestinians" crap - it's simply a lie.

Anyhow Souljette, watch this video summarising the entire conflict in 5 minutes. Tell me if you agree that this is the truth. If not, then we have nothing to debate, and you community has done an excellent job at brainwashing you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63hTOaRu7h4&feature=player_embedded

[Souljette_93]

Back to Turkey - remember that Turkey (Israel's former ally), had every opportunity to deliver as much aid as they wish to Gaza, through Egypt (El-Arish) or through Israel (Ashdod). And I read Ma'an enough to see the pictures of Gaza market overflowing with food, and Hamasnicks driving Audis in Rafah and Jabalyah, so don't give me any of that "poor, opressed Palestinians" crap - it's simply a lie.

Wow you have a cold heart. If you don't believe the pictures-watch the videos. But then again, it would explain why Israel continues to do what it does.

Anyhow Souljette, watch this video summarising the entire conflict in 5 minutes. Tell me if you agree that this is the truth. If not, then we have nothing to debate, and you community has done an excellent job at brainwashing you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63hTOaRu7h4&feature=player_embedded

Watched it. There are only *some parts which i can say is true. He states that one side wants the other dead, and that it is only the Arabs/Muslims that don't believe in the existence of Israel.

but he forgets that Arabs are not the only one against the occupation. Even people from your nation is against Israel. Have a look what they say on their website:
http://www.jewsagainsttheoccupation.org/home.html

http://www.israelversusjudaism.org

Judaism teaches us, that the right for the Jewish people to have self rule in the Holy Land is not unconditional. Since the destruction of our Holy Temple over two thousand years ago, the Jewish people have been exiled from this land by Divine decree. The Talmud tells us that G-d obligated us not to rebel against the ruling bodies, and not to take the land of Israel by force (see Babylonian Talmud tractate Kesubos 111A).

The aggression that Zionism presents in originally taking the Holy Land from its indigenous inhabitants is the first flag that exposes this movement for what it is -- a real deviation from Judaism. Judaism forbids us from taking the land away from those who currently have jurisdiction over it. That such things should be done not only in opposition to Judaism, but in the name of the very Judaism it defies is simply large-scale fraud. Zionism, once exposed, proves to be the greatest enemy, the worst nightmare, to the Jewish religion and it's practitioners, that exists to date. Zionism, strikes out regularly at Jews who remain true to Torah and its precepts. There are many Jews who protest against the very existence of the State of Israel, and who are quite vocal, albeit peaceful, about their opposition. Whenever Zionist policies or activities run counter to the Torah stance, Torah-true Jews come forward to unmask the imposter. Unfortunately, they have many opportunities to voice their stand, because few countries in the world tramples on the religious rights of its inhabitants as regularly as does the State of Israel.

And don't tell me that Israel does not want to wipe the nation of Palestine. Here the very words of your former leaders:

Ariel Sharon, then Israeli Foreign Minister, confirmed in 1998 what the plan really was for the Palestinians:

'It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialisation, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.'

The Israel Prime Minister and terrorist, Menachem Begin, described the Palestinians in a speech to the Israeli parliament as 'beasts walking on two legs'. Another Prime Minister and terrorist, Yitzhak Shamir, told Jewish settlers in 1988 that the Palestinians 'would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls.'

Taken from:

http://www.davidicke.com/articles/war-and-terror-mainmenu-45/19027-time-to-tell-the-truth-about-israel-without-fear-of-the-mind-police

Oh and on the side note, i remember being called 'brainwashed' before here on VN simply because I stand up to what I believe in. So it's nothing new really, i mean what more can you say? Yeah that's right, blame it on community and what not. Why don't you turn the table around and ask yourself, "Am i not too, brainwashed?" -It seems as the definition here of brainwashed is that if you hold a contrasting view than other party.


And just to add my 2 cents on the topic of this thread,
Should Turkey Join the EU?

I have no problem with them joining, if that is going to create peace among the people.

[Chavi]

Souljette, the reality is, that I've seen all of this before and you're bringing nothing new to the table.

It's kinda funny how on the one hand people like you claim that Israel is a powerful oppressor wiping out the "Palestinians" (it's debatable whether they actually exist as a distinct people), yet their population continues to grow because of (wait for it. . .) Israeli healthcare advances!! - (They have a higher life-expectancy rate in Gaza than they do in Turkey

THE ISRAELI MASSACRE OF "POOR INNOCENT PALESTINIANS" IN FIGURES
Palestinian population:
 

Oh, and it's nice that you like to bandy around big, words with a large shock factor. Truth is, you're not fooling anyone. Ethnic cleansing? Remember this:


And just a point on Jews voicing their opinions on Israel. I'm proud that there is a diversity of opinion in the Jewish world - and people are free to debate in the marketplace of ideas without getting a fatwa issues against them (hmm, I wonder if you want Sulman Rushdie dead as well?).

btw, what didn't you disagree about in the video I posted?

Everyone from Finkelstein, to Dershowitz to Chomsky - Jews forming the entire spectrum of opinion. But let me just say this - a firm majority of Jews around the world support Israel, and will continue to do so (over half of the world's Jewish population lives in Israel). You'll be surprised how many Year 12 Jewish school kids from Melbourne are moving to Israel next year to enlist in the Israeli Army. Support is strong, and we support Israel because of the value it places on democracy, humanitarianism, freedom - and self determination of the Jewish people.

If you truly think that Israel wants to kill Palestinians, I truly pity you, because this is sooo wrong. Have you been to Israel? Have you spoken to Israelis? This is a plain white lie, pure and simple.
I challenge you to provide one irrefutable example of the Israeli government intentionally targeting civilians (i.e. the claim made by the Goldstone report). Because we both know that your beloved Hamas is dedicated to just that - intentionally killing as many civilians as possible (that's why it's listed as a terrorist organization!)
You support Hamas. This is what you are. We see through you. You support terror. You can't hide behind the humanitarian veneer of Pallywood pictures and victimhood. That is sickening.