Islamic Barbies

[taiga]

I think people tend to jump to conclusions that someone has won an argument because they "broke down" what someone else had to say.

I could take ALOT of things from Judaism, Christianity, and Hinduism and place them in a modern context, and they would sound pretty disgusting.

A Jihad used by mainstream Islamics is a "struggle". By definition it is not necessarily violent. Many years ago I was taught to look past the one sided interpretations of every religion which inevitably cast them in a bad light, and look at other factors or readings. I am sure that most modern Islamic clerics do not acknowledge a Jihad as a violent maneuver to expand Islamic territory, nor is this being taught to young Islamics. Sitting there claiming Jihad is factually defined as death, destruction and chaos just exemplifies your inability to appreciate different views.

Similarly I "lol" at your statistics, are you telling me that the majority of Islamics actively support terrorism? I don't care about statistics, there is no way you can convince a reasoned person that is the case.

Islamophobia is non-existent??, I don't think you thought that statement through. Additionally the key word in my statement was "further".

Yes, as you said, the main difference between Islam and other religions is that in certain areas, Islamic law has not been adjusted to the "times". I am still maintaining that at a fundamental level, they are not all that different to the values of other Mainstream religions. On a religious time scale it was only recently that women gained the same rights as men. This goes for the whole world.

You also missed the point of my hypothetical.

I don't think Hijab's are directly trying to kill anyone as you imply.

"motivation is purely religious and ideological"

Alot of modern culture is based on those two things.

I'm not denying there are darker forces at play under the mask of Islam. I don't think posting one news article of an incident is a QED proof that these dolls are out to get girls to blow themselves up.

I can also find articles about Hindu, Judaic, and Christian extremists.

I don't think I'm going to convince you of anything, but just my 2 cents.

[ninwa]

I'm not denying there are darker forces at play under the mask of Islam. I don't think posting one news article of an incident is a QED proof that these dolls are out to get girls to blow themselves up.

That was absolutely not my intention, I just thought it was a cute bit of news. Interesting how a concept (dolls) is so different in each culture.

Probably should've posted this in "lifestyle and entertainment" >_>

[taiga]

I'm not denying there are darker forces at play under the mask of Islam. I don't think posting one news article of an incident is a QED proof that these dolls are out to get girls to blow themselves up.

That was absolutely not my intention, I just thought it was a cute bit of news. Interesting how a concept (dolls) is so different in each culture.

Probably should've posted this in "lifestyle and entertainment" >_>

Wasn't referring to the topic.
I was referring to Chavi's response to my statement regarding why girls play with dolls. Yes, girls play with dolls. Yes, a girl blew herself up. This does not equate to dolls resulting in girls blowing themselves up.


[edit]


I have a 3 year old family friend coming over this weekend, I'll show her the picture. If she tries to blow me up I'll acknowledge that you were right.
 

[Chavi]

I have a 3 year old family friend coming over this weekend, I'll show her the picture. If she tries to blow me up I'll acknowledge that you were right.
 

That's not the point. This is just *one example of many in which Muslim youth are conditioned to follow a set of archaic values such as hate or global domination. The Barbie may seem harmless on it's own, but in context, if you add *violent Maddrassas, children's shows glorifying death and destruction (see Yitzi's link), pressure from parents to avenge/honour the family, as well as government incompetence or outright support - you get an explosive situation in which normal kids are driven toward terrorism.

Similarly I "lol" at your statistics, are you telling me that the majority of Islamics actively support terrorism? I don't care about statistics, there is no way you can convince a reasoned person that is the case.

check.this.out. (Pew is unaffiliated) http://pewresearch.org/pubs/26/where-terrorism-finds-support-in-the-muslim-world

[taiga]

If you add any of those things to tonka toy trucks, the outcome is exactly the same.

These barbies do not build up extremist values in any child.

[Yitzi_K]

I'd like to point out this is *Iran* being a international basketcase as usual, not all muslims are like this (i'm not one myself) but all the ones i know are pretty regular people who don't go around creating their own dolls lol

+1

Muslims changing children's icons? Well there's nothing new about that.

That site is just... (can't find the right word with enough negative connotations here). It really paints a bad image for how others see Muslims.

Wait… so it's the website that's at fault for people's perception of Muslims, not the fact that they put a Mickey Mouse character on a children's show telling them to become martyrs by killing Jews?

Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience

[Souljette_93]

Chavi, You have really the wrong understanding of Islam. i suggest you should revise where you have derieved these sources.

These are terms that have been around for 1300 years. Same terms, same ideology. This "Jihad" that you mildly speak of means "holy war". Or more precisely: It means the legal, compulsory, communal effort to expand the territories ruled by Muslims at the expense of territories ruled by non-Muslims. This is a core tenet of the Q'uran and you don't need to be an Islamic scholar to know that. This means death, destruction and chaos.

holy war? looks like a media definition. But refer to taiga's definition because he has the right understanding. "core tenet?" -go read the Qura'an.

You mean like imposing laws such as those that limit daughters' inheritance to half the portion of sons, and others according to which a woman's testimony counted for half that of a man. Yes, this can be found in other religious too - but the fundamentalist version of this is only in practice by Muslims.

Whilst this is true, it is not seen through the negative light you've shown it.

A man can take double that of the woman because he is the maintainer/provider for the woman & the household. This means that he has the responsibility to spend financially on their needs, whilst on the other hand, the woman does not, and is not entitled to spend on anyone but herself. ( she may, but that's her choice)-this is not to show that she's inferior-but rather she has an advantage, I thank Allah for such a rule.

In a testimony, there must be two women for every one man. The wisdom behind this is so if one forgets, the other reminds her. This is because women are busy, surrounded with work they must do ( children..etc) and can easily forget.

Ah yes. Democracy, human rights, capitalism and treating women as something other than animals comes straight from the Q'uran

?
Our Quran says:

O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good. (An-Nisa 4:19)

Our prophet ( peace be upon him) taught us:
 
'Allah enjoins you to treat women well for they are your mothers, daughters and aunts. The most perfect Muslim is he whose disposition is best and the best of you are they who behave best with their wives'.

[
Irrelevant argument. Nuns aren't trying to kill anyone.

So I infer that you're saying that Niqab/burqa's are aiming to kill people? -seems like pure ignorance. You should know that women who wear the burqa/niqab are of the follows:

-That they believe it's compulsory. ( based on different interpretations & school of thought)
-That it will bring them closer to Allah by doing voluntary  deeds-by imitating the great women of the past. ( these do not believe it is compulsory, but they do believe it is highly recommended ( which is what I believe))

They are in Iran, that is a cultural factor, hence they can base their toys on that culture as well.

No - I keep on mentioning that the motivation is purely religious and ideological. The Niqab is a cultural relic limited to the Arabian peninsula that has spread worldwide with the advent of the Wahabbi movement. The Persians don't historically wear niqabs.

Refer to above. The niqab is believed to be compulsory by great scholars of Islam. People who say it's culture ( some who are even Muslims) have got it wrong. In fact, the women of Arabia during the prophet's time when they heard the new revelation of the Hijab, some completely covered their faces.

Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Hadith # 282
Narrated Safiya bint Shaiba (Radhiallaahu Ánha)  "Aa'ishah (Radhiallaahu Ánha) used to say: "When (the Verse): "They should draw their veils over their necks and bosoms," was revealed, (the ladies) cut their waist sheets at the edges and covered their faces with the cut pieces.

I have provided you from the Islamic sources & teachings. hopefully they would have a least cleared a few things up.

[Souljette_93]

Wait… so it's the website that's at fault for people's perception of Muslims, not the fact that they put a Mickey Mouse character on a children's show telling them to become martyrs by killing Jews?

Hey man, I wouldn't be talking.  I happen to just find this article before I logged on VN. It is also your Rabbi's that's going on about attacking Muslims/Palestinians:

http://www.smh.com.au/world/may-the-palestinians-perish-says-leading-rabbi-20100830-147bs.html

[Abdi]

It is disgusting to see you people carry on like this, this is a VCE students online aid not a website established to 'blame' or more so 'deteriorate' others religious views.

Chavi I'm getting quite fed up with your ineptitude in failing to provide substantial evidence as to your comments, furthermore I don't see why you're against Muslims, countless of times you must direct attacks on us Muslims and make us believe you're an angel. Your bias comments are indicative of hate. That is all! -.-'

[samiira]

Quote
Ah yes. Democracy, human rights, capitalism and treating women as something other than animals comes straight from the Q'uran

@ chavi.. realli i think u have limitied knowledge of islam.. what u know is wateva ur exposed to from the media. You should really have a chat with a few muslims and get to know what islam really is about. YOu'll actually be surprised at how much you didnt know
Islam gave rights to women long before any other nation. In islam women have the right to own property. A woman is the owner of her earnings. No one ( father, husband or brother) has right over them. So say if she works and earns money she doesnt not even have to spend a penny on teh house. This is one of teh reasons why men get more inheritance coz they have a reponsibility to take care of teh family as well as teh wife. Woman in islam had rights more than anyone else. even till today.  If u look back in time
* Roman civilization regarded women as slaves
* Greeks considered women as commodities that could be bought and sold
* long back in india women considered worse than death, pest, serpents or even hell. A wifes life ended with the death of her husband, a widow had to jump in the flames of her husbands funeral prayer
* in Arabis ( that is pre-islamic arabia) Baby girls were somtimes buried alive after birth they were regarded as a cause for grief and unhappiness
*IN france a meeting was held to study the status of women and to determine wether a woman could truly be considered a human or not !
* Henry VII in england forbade teh reading of the bible
*Throughout teh middle ages the catholic church regarded women as second class citizens
*Up till today a jewish girls reading of teh torah end/stops when she attains teh age of puberty
Till today woman are abused in advertising
*In western countries, governments grant business licenses which legalizing the raping of women at a known premises! governments tehn collect taxes from those prostitution centres

If we keep this picture in mind, it shows islam liberated women form teh dark ages of obscurity more than fourteen hundred years ago!







*

[Spreadbury]

*In western countries, governments grant business licenses which legalizing the raping of women at a known premises! governments tehn collect taxes from those prostitution centres

Pardon?

[taiga]

What happens in a Brothel generally isn't rape. I'm morally against it either way.

I can't help but think some certain people dishing out all the aggression towards Islam may have been positioned at some stage by certain external factors... Two out of two is a strong enough correlation for me. I feared that when the first posts were made this discussion would descend into something like this

@Souljette_93, excuse my ignorance, but isn't culture in the middle-east based upon religion to an extent? That's why I implied the wearing of the Burqa/Niqab may be a cultural trend.

[samiira]

Just to point out a few interesting this i discovered..

In regarding the birth of females

The Catholic Bible states explicitly that:
"The birth of a daughter is a loss" (Ecclesiasticus 22:3).

Jewish Rabbis made it an obligation on Jewish men to produce offspring in order to propagate the race. At the same time, they did not hide their clear preference for male children : "It is well for those whose children are male but ill for those whose are female", "At the birth of a boy, all are joyful...at the birth of a girl all are sorrowful", and "When a boy comes into the world, peace comes into the world... When a girl comes, nothing comes."7

the Quran considers the birth of a female as a gift and a blessing from God, the same as the birth of a male.
In order to wipe out all the traces of female infanticide in the nascent Muslim society, Prophet Muhammad promised those who were blessed with daughters of a great reward if they would bring them up kindly:

"He who is involved in bringing up daughters, and accords benevolent treatment towards them, they will be protection for him against Hell-Fire" (Bukhari and Muslim).

"Whoever maintains two girls till they attain maturity, he and I will come on the Resurrection Day like this; and he joined his fingers" (Muslim).


Regarding education of women

The heart of Judaism is the Torah, the law. However, according to the Talmud, "women are exempt from the study of the Torah."
Some Jewish Rabbis firmly declared "Let the words of Torah rather be destroyed by fire than imparted to women", and "Whoever teaches his daughter Torah is as though he taught her obscenity"

The attitude of St. Paul in the New Testament is not brighter:
"As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)
And what islam says:

"Allah has heard and accepted the statement of the woman who pleads with you (the Prophet) concerning her husband and carries her complaint to Allah, and Allah hears the arguments between both of you for Allah hears and sees all things...." (58:1).
A woman in the Quranic conception has the right to argue even with the Prophet of Islam himself. No one has the right to instruct her to be silent. She is under no obligation to consider her husband the one and only reference in matters of law and religion.

Regarding wifes property

The Jewish tradition regarding the husband's role towards his wife stems from the conception that he owns her as he owns his slave.

"How can a woman have anything; whatever is hers belongs to her husband? What is his is his and what is hers is also his...... Her earnings and what she may find in the streets are also his. The household articles, even the crumbs of bread on the table, are his. Should she invite a guest to her house and feed him, she would be stealing from her husband..." (San. 71a, Git. 62a)


Islam, since the seventh century C.E., has granted married women the independent personality which the Judaeo-Christian West had deprived them until very recently.
The husband is not allowed any share in his wife's property except what she offers him with her free consent. 29 The Quran has stated its position on this issue quite clearly:

"And give the women (on marriage) their dower as a free gift; but if they, Of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, take it and enjoy it with right good cheer" (4:4)

The wife's property and earnings are under her full control and for her use alone since her, and the children's, maintenance is her husband's responsibility. 30 No matter how rich the wife might be, she is not obliged to act as a co-provider for the family unless she herself voluntarily chooses to do so. Spouses do inherit from one another. Moreover, a married woman in Islam retains her independent legal personality and her family name. An American judge once commented on the rights of Muslim women saying: " A Muslim girl may marry ten times, but her individuality is not absorbed by that of her various husbands. She is a solar planet with a name and legal personality of her own."

[kdgamz]

Im afraid chavi seems to have a very ignorant view when it comes to muslims and Islam
my advice: Read Islamic books because you clearly have a problem with definitions and TALK TO MUSLIMS to get an idea of Islam,
Dont give us random and very rare pieces of *information* u found on the internet

[Souljette_93]

What happens in a Brothel generally isn't rape. I'm morally against it either way.

I can't help but think some certain people dishing out all the aggression towards Islam may have been positioned at some stage by certain external factors... Two out of two is a strong enough correlation for me. I feared that when the first posts were made this discussion would descend into something like this

me too.

@Souljette_93, excuse my ignorance, but isn't culture in the middle-east based upon religion to an extent? That's why I implied the wearing of the Burqa/Niqab may be a cultural trend.

Well there is no doubt that that they have somehow merged religion in with culture, this is why sometimes you find some actions done which isn't part of the religion but culture, but manage to actually say this is from religion. ( Some are so ignorant, it kills)

With the Burqa, I can see how people manage to see it is culture. And the sad thing is people are going around claiming things and others are believing them..hence the rise misconceptions and stuff..

But if you were to look deeply, as the way I did, it came from the religion-the different interpretation of Scholars of the past.