Preparing for the UMAT

[Russ]

Because a surgeon never has to use any spatial reasoning when a patient's appendix is in the "wrong position" (retroileal rather than retrocaecal)...
The UMAT is testing underlying skills, which is part of the reason it's a good test as far as I'm concerned. It doesn't have to have practical applications, what you learn in your MBBS is going to have practical applications

[aznboy50]

Well pi,

It is easy to find flaws in most systems, can you think up a better one?

I can tell you honestly, the people who get 99+ are not necessarily going to be the best doctors that we have to offer. So another form of non-subjective selection criteria is needed.I can't personally think of a better way to gauge who would be an apt doctor. Keep in mind, they are looking for intelligent, hard-working people who can communicate well and are empathetic.


Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience

[shinny]

^Fair point, but when will a surgeon need to match shapes in a pattern? I agree with the emotive parts of the test (can see the practical applications), but knowledge of huge vocabs and expert pattern recognising doesn't really match any of the occupations. Plus, if luck plays a huge role, do we want surgeons who got there through pure merit, or through a fair bit of luck? Wouldn't that make the system a bit worse, if luck plays such a huge role (it already plays role in VCE subjects like english, etc.)?

I don't think you see the point of those other sections. Diagnosis is largely a game of pattern recognition. Things in Medicine are rarely straight forward and present themselves as complete textbook definitions, so a large degree of pattern recognition is needed in the process. Section 1 follows a similar thing. The ability to make logical deductions from a large amount of information is vital. Even in my clinical exams, we're bombarded with a heap of irrelevant information from the patient's history which we have to sort through in our heads while talking to them, and make connections between the relevant information. The time constraints of the UMAT reflect the type of pressure and time constraints with which you have to operate under on a regular basis as a medical student and as a doctor in your thought processes.

Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience

[Andiio]

IMO the UMAT is the fairest it can get.

[pi]

^^Got me there Russ and shinny, thats true, and I understand the point now.

But still, so much luck to determine a person who is operating on someone else (although there would be some who got there purely/mostly on merit though)... It seems a bit risky, with so much luck involved for most applicants. Surely there is a better way to test the underlying skills, that involves less luck.

My idea for a replacement would be to eliminate the multiple choice factor, reduce the number of questions (whilst still maintaining time constraints) and make it all short answer (or mostly, as some patterns would be hard to draw I guess). Harder to guess, less luck, better/more deserved people getting their course and the underlying skills (that Russ and shinny mentioned) are still all there. More fair and better for the future.

[aznboy50]

IMO the UMAT is the fairest it can get.

Agree with this with the exemption that in theory the 'rich' kids should be able to get prep material that helps them. Luckily we have a way of getting that material free...

[Russ]

Socio economic factors will literally always be part of your career. The surgeon/pediatrician/etc. who gets a fellowship but can't afford to provide his own rooms or secretary etc. You can't really point at the fact that wealthy students have an advantage as a reason for the UMAT being unfair.

But still, so much luck to determine a person who is operating on someone else (although there would be some who got there purely/mostly on merit though)... It seems a bit risky, with so much luck involved for most applicants. Surely there is a better way to test the underlying skills, that involves less luck.

Just how much luck do you think is involved. Guessing MCQs successfully is partially negated by the marking system and I don't think that luck is a factor other than the standard "had a bad day", which isn't really that big a deal.

Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience

[aznboy50]

Socio economic factors will literally always be part of your career. The surgeon/pediatrician/etc. who gets a fellowship but can't afford to provide his own rooms or secretary etc. You can't really point at the fact that wealthy students have an advantage as a reason for the UMAT being unfair.

But still, so much luck to determine a person who is operating on someone else (although there would be some who got there purely/mostly on merit though)... It seems a bit risky, with so much luck involved for most applicants. Surely there is a better way to test the underlying skills, that involves less luck.

Just how much luck do you think is involved. Guessing MCQs successfully is partially negated by the marking system and I don't think that luck is a factor other than the standard "had a bad day", which isn't really that big a deal.

Could you elaborate on that first point? No disputing your point, just curious. You mean that socio-economics could be an issue for someone wanting to become a surgeon even though they are accepted in to Surgery college?

Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience

[Andiio]

Socio economic factors will literally always be part of your career. The surgeon/pediatrician/etc. who gets a fellowship but can't afford to provide his own rooms or secretary etc. You can't really point at the fact that wealthy students have an advantage as a reason for the UMAT being unfair.

But still, so much luck to determine a person who is operating on someone else (although there would be some who got there purely/mostly on merit though)... It seems a bit risky, with so much luck involved for most applicants. Surely there is a better way to test the underlying skills, that involves less luck.

Just how much luck do you think is involved. Guessing MCQs successfully is partially negated by the marking system and I don't think that luck is a factor other than the standard "had a bad day", which isn't really that big a deal.

Could you elaborate on that first point? No disputing your point, just curious. You mean that socio-economics could be an issue for someone wanting to become a surgeon even though they are accepted in to Surgery college?

Of course, for example if someone was accepted into a prestigious university but could not afford the tuition fees etc? And I would think that there may be slight discrimination based on socio-economic factors? Correct me if I'm wrong

Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience

[nacho]

...
so, how's section 1 coming a long for you guys?
Is section 2 medentry really all that different (in terms of question stlye) from the actual one? Or do you just mean it's a lot harder/easier?

This makes me sad..

[aznboy50]

Socio economic factors will literally always be part of your career. The surgeon/pediatrician/etc. who gets a fellowship but can't afford to provide his own rooms or secretary etc. You can't really point at the fact that wealthy students have an advantage as a reason for the UMAT being unfair.

But still, so much luck to determine a person who is operating on someone else (although there would be some who got there purely/mostly on merit though)... It seems a bit risky, with so much luck involved for most applicants. Surely there is a better way to test the underlying skills, that involves less luck.

Just how much luck do you think is involved. Guessing MCQs successfully is partially negated by the marking system and I don't think that luck is a factor other than the standard "had a bad day", which isn't really that big a deal.

Could you elaborate on that first point? No disputing your point, just curious. You mean that socio-economics could be an issue for someone wanting to become a surgeon even though they are accepted in to Surgery college?

Of course, for example if someone was accepted into a prestigious university but could not afford the tuition fees etc? And I would think that there may be slight discrimination based on socio-economic factors? Correct me if I'm wrong

He means post-university. After you finish your medical degree and go into surgeons college or paediatrics college...

Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience

[s2penguin]

Hey Russ,

How hard is it to become a surgeon once your in a medical degree?
Would it require a perfect GPA or what selection criteria do they use?

[Russ]

Specialties are done after you've graduated and worked in the health system for several years. Your uni grades won't matter, what will matter is how good your clinical skills are, your experience, any extra degrees you have, your connections etc.

[vexx]

Specialties are done after you've graduated and worked in the health system for several years. Your uni grades won't matter, what will matter is how good your clinical skills are, your experience, any extra degrees you have, your connections etc.

Yeah it's all about references+reputation getting in to the specialty training.

[iNerd]

Worth starting prep for UMAT during Year 11?