Muhammed mentioned in the Bible and Torah.

[stonecold]

Did somebody say religious debate?

This is the VN we all know, love and remember. 

[Yitzi_K]

Well it would have been had I been around to participate

Nothing like opening a fresh can of worms

[jane1234]

I'm not really trying to argue against you (kind of agnostic myself) but you can argue just as much that there is no "proof" for either side. You can't prove that God exists, yet you can't prove that he doesn't. I think in our scientific world we tend to only believe things that are based on logic and fact, which causes the "you must prove there is a God or it doesn't exist" mentality. Someone can interpret "proof" any way they like. Kind of relates to the court system of "innocent until proven guilty" way of thinking, where people must have no reasonable doubt of their guilt whatsoever to charge someone guilty. Doesn't mean they're not guilty.

Sorry, but if you're going to bring up legal analogies then I have to mention this: the onus of proof is person who makes the positive assertion. Religious people say that god exists; the burden is upon them to prove them. Otherwise, I can assert anything - e.g. I believe there is a ball of talking yarn floating around 1,000,000 light years away in a pool of aeroplane jelly who controls everything we do, you can't prove me wrong therefore it exists and you're all wrong about this god man in the sky.

No, I wasn't trying to say that god exists - I was just saying athiests can't prove god doesn't exist just as religious people can't prove he does exist. Athiests say god doesn't exist - so they should be able to prove it just as much as religious people should be able to prove god does exist.

Point is, you can't prove either side - which I think everyone knows.

'Tis amusing watching people try though (reading the rest of the thread haha).

[enwiabe]

No jane1234, you exhibit a fundamental misunderstanding about atheism which I explained at length to you in my reply which you have clearly failed to read.

Atheists simply reject a belief in god. Atheism literally means "without belief". Just because we don't believe in a god doesn't mean we say that there is definitely no god. That would be unscientific. My problem with religion is that it allows people to be certain about something which they cannot be certain about. That leads to grave injustices and abuses as we see in the world.

[Mao]

but hell, doesn't the existance of humanity violate critical thought processes? how can something simply appear out of nothing?

I would like to refer you to the anthropic principle. The physical conditions required for life is a very delicate balance, but the fact that we are alive to observe it means the conditions must be just right. It is all coincidences, but because we are here to observe it, it puts us right in the middle of the coincidences.


[EDIT: nevermind, enwiabe took care of it]

[Mao]

Just because we don't believe in a god doesn't mean we say that there is definitely no god. That would be unscientific.

So your viewpoint is there may be a God, but you don't believe in any god(s) described in religious texts?
That will make you an agnostic.

[enwiabe]

enwiabe + ninwa, I disagree with you two on this (it's a first LOL).

The way you both go on about religion really shows a lack of tolerance for people of other faiths. The problem isn't religion, or people's religious beliefs, rather the problem is humanity itself. Organized religion is pretty much flawed to no end, but our society was built upon the morality which was instilled by religion, also not everything which has come out of christianity, islam, judaism, buddhism, hindus, sikhs etc has been bad, a lot of progress in humanity only occurred because of religion, if we hadn't come up with religions we'd probably still be living in caves tbh... people also need to realize both the old and new testaments are products of the time they're written in. I don't think anyone can claim that they're anything close to perfect, but they were written by men 2000 years ago in an age where (for example) slavery WAS common and accepted... you should honestly be able to pick and choose what you believe in the bible.  

We can talk about the messed up shit people did fighting over religions, like the crusades, ethnic cleansing, etc... But you can also just as easily list wars that occurred because of land, kings, money, love... religion isn't what caused humanity to go into all these wars, hell we'll keep on killing each other irrespective of any religion or any other bullshit like that. So i'm skeptical when you imply that religion is the downfall of humanity or something to that effect, really we're our own worst enemies =P.

religion is a way for people to find meaning in their lives, a way for them to have some sort of moral compass, and hey, I'm glad that you two don't need that because you're smart people who obviously have no need to live your lives that way, but hell, doesn't the existance of humanity violate critical thought processes? how can something simply appear out of nothing? pretty sure that violates my critical thought process right there. we can do a full loop as well - how can an omnipotent being simply exist out of nothing and make something, but my point is there is no true answer, nobody knows and nobody ever will know, so there's no point in you saying all religions are fairy tales because isn't the probability of a religion being correct close to the probability of there being no god at all - BOTH cases, at least in my opinion, don't make much sense because the concept of us existing doesn't make any sense either way.

also, a bit off topic, but i don't see why religion has to always be so against evolution. I mean seriously, just say god created the first cell, or the matter which initiated the big bang, LOL.

Teewreck, you're missing the point. Religion and faith require the suspension of logic. It requires people to stop thinking and take the most important answer to the most important question simply on faith.

You're rational and sane and so you know the bible was written by men 2000 years ago. But lots of people take it as the word of god. There is nobody more dangerous than the person who thinks he knows the word of god and will act on that belief till the bitter end because he thinks he will be rewarded in the afterlife.

That is how you get suicide bombers. Religion is absolutely dangerous.

And I disagree that people -need- religion. That has certainly been the status quo for the weak-minded of humanity until now, but I see no reason for that to continue. People simply need to be shown that life has the meaning that we make of it.

Teewreck you really hit the nail on the head but just fail to go that one step closer when you say "BOTH cases, at least in my opinion, don't make much sense because the concept of us existing doesn't make any sense either way."

I NEVER made any claims to know how we came into being. I couldn't. That would be impossible at this point. Only religion is so arrogant as to claim to know. Science does NOT claim to know everything about how we came to be here. Two important mysteries to solve are abiogenesis and what caused the big bang (if it was even a causal event at all). Just because you don't understand how we came to be here doesn't mean it violates your critical thought processes, it is simply a knowledge gap that all of humanity has.

Only religion takes that wild stab in the dark and goes "ERM DERP GOD". And that sortof certainty in something so powerful deludes people into doing evil things in the name of religion.

Also, on your point about humanity doing evil shit on account of other stuff. Those are also major concerns to worry about, but religion is something that can be snuffed out the easiest. All it takes is to enlighten and educate people from brainwashing. Land, sex, money etc. are all base instincts that we'll have a much harder time of ridding the world. Those require moral teachings the value of which you cannot communicate in a few internet postings. That sort of learning is a lifelong process.

[enwiabe]

Just because we don't believe in a god doesn't mean we say that there is definitely no god. That would be unscientific.

So your viewpoint is there may be a God, but you don't believe in any god(s) described in religious texts?
That will make you an agnostic.

Wrong. That makes me an agnostic atheist. Get your definitions straight.

"Agnostic atheism, also called atheistic agnosticism, is a philosophical position that encompasses both atheism and agnosticism.[1] Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know with certainty whether any deity exists.[1][2] The agnostic atheist may be contrasted with the agnostic theist, who does believe that one or more deities exist but does not claim to have absolute knowledge of such.[1]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheist

[enwiabe]

Well it would have been had I been around to participate

Nothing like opening a fresh can of worms

Why not dive in now?

[Mao]

Just because we don't believe in a god doesn't mean we say that there is definitely no god. That would be unscientific.

So your viewpoint is there may be a God, but you don't believe in any god(s) described in religious texts?
That will make you an agnostic.

Wrong. That makes me an agnostic atheist. Get your definitions straight.

"Agnostic atheism, also called atheistic agnosticism, is a philosophical position that encompasses both atheism and agnosticism.[1] Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know with certainty whether any deity exists.[1][2] The agnostic atheist may be contrasted with the agnostic theist, who does believe that one or more deities exist but does not claim to have absolute knowledge of such.[1]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheist

Agnosticism is a metaphysical position that 'God/s is not knowable' (strong) or 'God/s may not be knowable' (weak).

Atheism is a theological position that 'God does not exists' (strong) or 'I don't believe in God' (weak).

A combination of these two makes something along the lines of 'I don't believe in god, but I do not assert god/s do not exist. However proof for such a position may never be found.'

Which, to me, is no different to 'I don't believe in religion, but I cannot be certain whether or not there is a god. In fact, we may never be able to answer that question'. (this is pure weak agnoticism)

[enwiabe]

So you're being hipster mao where widely accepted definitions don't matter to you unless they fit your specific take on the situation? You're just being deliberately flippant, here.

EDIT: I also like to call my brand of atheism by its parent - rationalism. You happy with my simply calling it rationalism?

[MJRomeo81]

but I invite you to investigate the utterly stunning improbability

And evolution isn't an utterly stunning probability?

No, it isn't. It is a scientific fact, accepted by everybody who knows how to think for themselves.

Evolution is a scientific FACT? The ignorance stinks. So much for your wonderful critical thinking abilities.

You came into a thread debating religion and offered your $0.02. You don't get to dictate the terms by which I reply.

Go and read my first two posts in this thread on page 4 I believe it is. I didn't come in debating religion. In fact, you're the one who came in stuck your noise into this thread (on page 2). Do you see what this topic is called? Why click on the thread if you don't believe? And don't give me the "oh i have to convince people otherwise because I have LOGICAL REASONING GUYS!". If you don't like the thread stay out of it. You're the one who turned this into a religious debate. My post with John 3:16 attempted to answer a question relating to why should we believe. In my next post I made it clearly evident I was happy to answer similar questions, but not the typical 'religion is bullshit" claim. Yes that's right it's a claim, because you can't prove it.

 If you want no part of this, then don't view the thread and certainly don't reply. I'm sick of religious people trying to dictate what people can and cannot say about their ridiculous beliefs, lest the poor dears be offended (these same types of people who for millennia, and continuing today, kill people for not believing what they believe unflinchingly and without proof).

I love your view of "all religious people KILL others who don't believe". BTW why do you feel like you have some special obligation to destroy people's beliefs? Man, your argument applies to yourself. If you don't like discussing religion in this thread, GTFO!

Yes, I call religion bullshit. Oops don't like that? Then show some proof. A central tenet of education (which is what this community promotes) is critical thought. Faith and religion violate critical thought processes and corrupt them in a most foul manner. I won't stand for that, and I will call bullshit when I see it. And if you take my calling of your ridiculous religion personally then that's your problem, not mine. I guess when somebody actually shows up how your religion is just utterly absurd and totally unbelievable, that puts you on the back foot. But make no mistake, I'm not attacking you. I'm attacking the suspension of critical thought and reason.

Nice try in dodging your own forum rules. Let me spell it out for you one more time:

Any comments making mass generalisations on the basis of sex, race, religion, or sexual preference must be supported by citable empirical evidence. AN takes a zero-tolerance policy to such bigotry.

Your generalisations such as religion is no good for society and religious people kill others are infringing the very rules your team came up with. Once again, you dun goofed.

And no, you haven't proved religion to be utterly absurd and totally unbelievable. You've successfully demonstrated your lack of knowledge by making claims such as "evolution is a scientific fact and everyone who is super smart says so HERPA DERP!!!". Please. Go and do some research.

What exactly is the "observable fact" of evolution? First you should be aware that evolutionists recognize two types of evolution -- micro evolution, which is observable, and macro evolution, which isn't. So called "micro evolution" is a process of limited variation among the individuals of a given species that produces the sort of variety we observe, for example, among dogs. Macro evolution, on the other hand, is a hypothetical process of unlimited variation that evolutionists believe transforms one kind of living organism into a fundamentally different kind such as the transformation of reptiles into birds or apes into people. Obviously, no one has ever observed anything remotely like this actually happen.

[Truck]

enwiabe + ninwa, I disagree with you two on this (it's a first LOL).

The way you both go on about religion really shows a lack of tolerance for people of other faiths. The problem isn't religion, or people's religious beliefs, rather the problem is humanity itself. Organized religion is pretty much flawed to no end, but our society was built upon the morality which was instilled by religion, also not everything which has come out of christianity, islam, judaism, buddhism, hindus, sikhs etc has been bad, a lot of progress in humanity only occurred because of religion, if we hadn't come up with religions we'd probably still be living in caves tbh... people also need to realize both the old and new testaments are products of the time they're written in. I don't think anyone can claim that they're anything close to perfect, but they were written by men 2000 years ago in an age where (for example) slavery WAS common and accepted... you should honestly be able to pick and choose what you believe in the bible. 

We can talk about the messed up shit people did fighting over religions, like the crusades, ethnic cleansing, etc... But you can also just as easily list wars that occurred because of land, kings, money, love... religion isn't what caused humanity to go into all these wars, hell we'll keep on killing each other irrespective of any religion or any other bullshit like that. So i'm skeptical when you imply that religion is the downfall of humanity or something to that effect, really we're our own worst enemies =P.

religion is a way for people to find meaning in their lives, a way for them to have some sort of moral compass, and hey, I'm glad that you two don't need that because you're smart people who obviously have no need to live your lives that way, but hell, doesn't the existance of humanity violate critical thought processes? how can something simply appear out of nothing? pretty sure that violates my critical thought process right there. we can do a full loop as well - how can an omnipotent being simply exist out of nothing and make something, but my point is there is no true answer, nobody knows and nobody ever will know, so there's no point in you saying all religions are fairy tales because isn't the probability of a religion being correct close to the probability of there being no god at all - BOTH cases, at least in my opinion, don't make much sense because the concept of us existing doesn't make any sense either way.

also, a bit off topic, but i don't see why religion has to always be so against evolution. I mean seriously, just say god created the first cell, or the matter which initiated the big bang, LOL.

Teewreck, you're missing the point. Religion and faith require the suspension of logic. It requires people to stop thinking and take the most important answer to the most important question simply on faith.

You're rational and sane and so you know the bible was written by men 2000 years ago. But lots of people take it as the word of god. There is nobody more dangerous than the person who thinks he knows the word of god and will act on that belief till the bitter end because he thinks he will be rewarded in the afterlife.

That is how you get suicide bombers. Religion is absolutely dangerous.

And I disagree that people -need- religion. That has certainly been the status quo for the weak-minded of humanity until now, but I see no reason for that to continue. People simply need to be shown that life has the meaning that we make of it.

Teewreck you really hit the nail on the head but just fail to go that one step closer when you say "BOTH cases, at least in my opinion, don't make much sense because the concept of us existing doesn't make any sense either way."

I NEVER made any claims to know how we came into being. I couldn't. That would be impossible at this point. Only religion is so arrogant as to claim to know. Science does NOT claim to know everything about how we came to be here. Two important mysteries to solve are abiogenesis and what caused the big bang (if it was even a causal event at all). Just because you don't understand how we came to be here doesn't mean it violates your critical thought processes, it is simply a knowledge gap that all of humanity has.

Only religion takes that wild stab in the dark and goes "ERM DERP GOD". And that sortof certainty in something so powerful deludes people into doing evil things in the name of religion.

Also, on your point about humanity doing evil shit on account of other stuff. Those are also major concerns to worry about, but religion is something that can be snuffed out the easiest. All it takes is to enlighten and educate people from brainwashing. Land, sex, money etc. are all base instincts that we'll have a much harder time of ridding the world. Those require moral teachings the value of which you cannot communicate in a few internet postings. That sort of learning is a lifelong process.

Yeah, but the problem is a lot of people feel like they need an answer, and religion provides it for them. You can hate that thought as much as you want, but there are people in the world who will believe because they need to believe in order to sustain their lives. That's why every culture has come up with some form of higher being. Personally, I hope that as the future goes on religion plays a smaller and smaller role in our society because I also think it has outlived it's usefulness. But one more thing; not all religions have caused evil and killing and a lot of progress in the world only occurred because of religion.

@MJR, Evolution is really, really, REALLY well justified. You should do some research on it instead of posting quotes that are really misleading and don't even make sense when you understand how the theory works.

[MJRomeo81]

@MJR, Evolution is really, really, REALLY well justified. You should do some research on it instead of posting quotes that are really misleading and don't even make sense when you understand how the theory works.

I never said the whole concept of evolution is false. That would be absurd. We can see evolution in our everyday life. However, to accept evolution as an undeniable scientific fact (in the sense that humans evolved from the apes irrefutably) is wrong. This is my point.

[Truck]

@MJR, Evolution is really, really, REALLY well justified. You should do some research on it instead of posting quotes that are really misleading and don't even make sense when you understand how the theory works.

I never said the whole concept of evolution is false. That would be absurd. We can see evolution in our everyday life. However, to accept evolution as an undeniable scientific fact (in the sense that humans evolved from the apes irrefutably) is wrong. This is my point.

Yeah but do you have an alternative that is supported by just as much evidence as evolution is?