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Author Topic: Muhammed mentioned in the Bible and Torah.  (Read 37366 times)  Share 

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enwiabe

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Re: Muhammed mentioned in the Bible and Torah.
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2011, 01:05:18 am »
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Yeah, they're all just fairytales, anyway. Stop worrying about god and go and enjoy your lives! You'll be all the better for it. :)

Enwiabe, a very foolish comment to make considering you are held in high regards within the atar notes community.

It is precisely because I hold respect that I feel a moral imperative to try and shake as many students as possible from the poisonous brainwashing of religion.

DisaFear

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Re: Muhammed mentioned in the Bible and Torah.
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2011, 01:52:26 am »
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rofl.



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Russ

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Re: Muhammed mentioned in the Bible and Torah.
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2011, 10:09:20 am »
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everything was designed and it must of been because it is so perfect, why do things exhibit poor design?

We have no major discovered need for our appendix and yet it is there. If god is all powerful (Omnipotent) surely he could of made our body function without an organ like this. Another example is the certain thing women go through every month, in many other animals this happens internally and causes much less problems.  Why do some people have genetic diseases or poorer eyesight than others, surely these things could of been perfectly designed around by an omnipotent being.

I have a $20 watch. Someone else has a $20,000 Cartier. They both function and they were both designed, but neither is perfect or optimal. I'm not particularly religious but it seems perfectly feasible that god didn't create the perfect specimen.

And if we want to talk menstruation, it has protective benefits that offset the annoyance.

ninwa

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Re: Muhammed mentioned in the Bible and Torah.
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2011, 02:20:07 pm »
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And if we want to talk menstruation, it has protective benefits that offset the annoyance.

Please expand on these benefits

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slothpomba

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Re: Muhammed mentioned in the Bible and Torah.
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2011, 01:10:09 am »
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I have a $20 watch. Someone else has a $20,000 Cartier. They both function and they were both designed, but neither is perfect or optimal. I'm not particularly religious but it seems perfectly feasible that god didn't create the perfect specimen.
The cartier costs that much for other reasons, you're paying for the name and to be a wanker with an expensive watch :p

It isn't 20k more expensive because it is designed heaps better. All watches as far as im aware work on some basic principals with gears and things like that. I think the extra cost is probably because of the name and maybe its made out of 20k gold. All i'm arguing is you can't say everything is perfectly designed by god when it clearly isn't.

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slothpomba

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Re: Muhammed mentioned in the Bible and Torah.
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2011, 01:37:09 am »
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Heys, We believe in a God that does as He pleases. Your questioning of "if" kind of implies that He is not able to do it, which is not true, God can create us utterly perfect or utterly deficient, such power is only to Him.
Why did he leave useless things in there like the appendix then or male nipples? Surely an omnipotent being could of done a little better? I wasn't saying god couldn't design things, it was more aimed at respects comment that everything is perfectly designed. If you're saying god did/can create flawed things then i agree with you. Sort of like the Demiurge deity of the gnostics is an imperfect god created by another god.


Of course these things could be designed by the Omnipotent Being! You are missing the point-all these things contain wisdoms in it which sometimes we humans will never understand or realise, or even concealed as it's a test/trial that humans can face-why is there suffering? why do innocent people die? How come I'm Asian, and he's European??
I don't really understand what you're saying here, maybe you need to rephrase it. Are you saying sickness and suffering is a test from god? I doubt a 2 Year old with leukemia who dies at 2 and a half really needs their morals or ethics tested by God. You could say its to test the parents but how cruel is it to bring a life into the world and destroy it, to only test the parents, not really showing much regard for the suffering of the child.

Suffering is also a test from God? What about if a child was brutally raped and murdered? Surely God could of prevented that if he willed, So, Why wouldn't he? Things like this happen all the time and he doesn't stop them. The child who was murdered was too young to need to be tested, they can't even think coherently yet and wouldn't be considered an adult Islamically.

You could argue maybe its to test if the Rapist would do it on his on free will and send him to hell later for it. Murdering the child denies the child of its free will though, why would god allow the destruction of one persons free will and life to simply test another's? If god is omnipotent he would surely know what that rapist would of done before he even does it anyway. He would also know what he is thinking and will think, so there is no need to let this poor child to be abused in such a way so he can just 'test' someone.


I have no idea of this "pantheon" but if he is an idol or a human then you know it wasn't him..( and I don't want to get into this debate about whether God is human or not)
Pantheon is a greek word for a collection of many god acting together. It is just as logical to assume 5 gods created the universe working together or sharing the same will as one god created it. So, yes, while respect argues, there must be *a god* everything is so perfectly designed, 5 gods could of also easily done that. That isn't really an argument for monotheistic religions or an argument in favor of islam. It's an argument in favor of almost every religion out there...Including pagans and polytheists who worship multiple gods....

You don't need to get into a debate. I understand in Islamic theology that god is incorperal (lacking a body).

Wouldn't that signify weakness? Wouldn't that contradict What is Islam is teaching?
God can forgive, however chose not to forgive those who die on "Shirk"
It wouldn't signify weakness, it would signify mercy, compassion and forgiveness. Why is such a mystical and powerful being so arrogant in the fact that the amount of punishment or sin he hands out is based on how different the particular religion a person was born into happens to be from Islam? It's not the persons fault he was born as a Hindu and worshiped multiple gods and yet he punishes someone who believed in one god (Satan,Thor,Zeus,etc) less than them? How is this fair? This person was just unlucky enough to been born there.

I'm agnostic i guess you'd say.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 01:38:44 am by kingpomba »

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Russ

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Re: Muhammed mentioned in the Bible and Torah.
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2011, 09:30:10 am »
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And if we want to talk menstruation, it has protective benefits that offset the annoyance.

Please expand on these benefits

*shakes fist at nature*

The only two I know are that it helps to remove bacteria and the loss of iron in the blood delays the ageing process/other diseases.

Whether or not that's worth the annoyance is probably not up to me to say though :P

Souljette_93

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Re: Muhammed mentioned in the Bible and Torah.
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2011, 08:50:55 pm »
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Why did he leave useless things in there like the appendix then or male nipples? Surely an omnipotent being could of done a little better? I wasn't saying god couldn't design things, it was more aimed at respects comment that everything is perfectly designed. If you're saying god did/can create flawed things then i agree with you. Sort of like the Demiurge deity of the gnostics is an imperfect god created by another god.

Nothing that  God created is useless, that's just your personal opinion. He creates/designs things in a manner which He likes. And Yes, God does create things-biggest proof of that is the human being, the human is flawed, and is not perfect. Like I said before, God can create something flawed or something perfect, all is in His wisdom for doing it.

Quote
I don't really understand what you're saying here, maybe you need to rephrase it. Are you saying sickness and suffering is a test from god? I doubt a 2 Year old with leukemia who dies at 2 and a half really needs their morals or ethics tested by God. You could say its to test the parents but how cruel is it to bring a life into the world and destroy it, to only test the parents, not really showing much regard for the suffering of the child.

I don't need to rephrase it, you understood my point.

Do you know that God is the most loving and loves that dear child ( in your example) more than it's own parents? So you cannot say it's cruel. the child suffering from leukemia is sent by God with obvious wisdom behind it, of course, it could be a test from God towards the parents, their patience, maybe it was this very child's sickness that caused their parents to be brought back to together after constant arguments, maybe this child's sickness will inspire the doctors to find a cure and cure the many thousands that have the disease?

And anyway, this child will be raised in paradise for they are still innocent. And no, God doesn't need to test the ethics or a two year old child, such thing only happens in puberty-where they are sound and are able to make decisions by themselves.


Quote
Suffering is also a test from God? What about if a child was brutally raped and murdered? Surely God could of prevented that if he willed, So, Why wouldn't he? Things like this happen all the time and he doesn't stop them. The child who was murdered was too young to need to be tested, they can't even think coherently yet and wouldn't be considered an adult Islamically.

You could argue maybe its to test if the Rapist would do it on his on free will and send him to hell later for it. Murdering the child denies the child of its free will though, why would god allow the destruction of one persons free will and life to simply test another's? If god is omnipotent he would surely know what that rapist would of done before he even does it anyway. He would also know what he is thinking and will think, so there is no need to let this poor child to be abused in such a way so he can just 'test' someone.

Yes suffering is a test from God and is a expiation of sins. In some ways, it can be a mercy, but we may not know it.

This is why we have our Justice system ( talking about Islamically) to take care of the evils that is done to kids, whether it's rape, murder or theft.

Ofcourse God would know the rapist's intentions, God knows both the past and the present, both the future and our inner selves. What we think, how we think, what's going to happen tomorrow and so forth.

I don't really understand what your trying to say, are you saying that He shouldn't allow this child to be raped ( even though He knew he was going to be) just to 'test' him?

You do know that God has forbidden rape from the first place, and warns that if someone was to do such act he will have to suffer the consequences, this child is considered innocent. If someone was in that position ( not a child,  but whoever) His/her test will be to keep patient and have their faith in Allah, for the humiliation they are in ( though they are innocent). And they are rewarded for that.

Quote

It wouldn't signify weakness, it would signify mercy, compassion and forgiveness. Why is such a mystical and powerful being so arrogant in the fact that the amount of punishment or sin he hands out is based on how different the particular religion a person was born into happens to be from Islam? It's not the persons fault he was born as a Hindu and worshiped multiple gods and yet he punishes someone who believed in one god (Satan,Thor,Zeus,etc) less than them? How is this fair? This person was just unlucky enough to been born there.

I'm agnostic i guess you'd say.

Signify Mercy, compassion and forgiveness for God choosing not to forgive those who die on shirk? No, that's justice. And everything what God lays out is Justice. They are attributing false Gods to Him, what can be more insulting than that?
 
God has all those attributes, Merciful, compassionate, forgiving, for He is known to be The Most Forgiving, the Most Merciful, the Most Kind, all these are part of His 99 names and attributes ( search more on them) and also one of His names is the All Just..

People have Intelligence. They have sound minds to clearly see the wrong and the right. Man-made religion cannot be sound, for it is made by someone who is flawed and bound to have flaws in the religion. But not divine law-because it comes from the Flawless.

That means people should question their faith. Everyone at some point in time has to make a conscience decision of what religion they choose to follow, not just because their forefathers followed a particular religion.

That is why there are many converts to Islam, from a wide spectrum of people. Those who Islam wasn't exposed to at all will be given a chance in the next life, and they will have to make a choice there. Know that your Lord is always Just.
 
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Mao

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Re: Muhammed mentioned in the Bible and Torah.
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2011, 03:56:31 am »
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Stupid question:

Assuming that God is all powerful and all loving and all that, why does he even care who worships him? Why is worship even necessary? Furthermore, are there any good reasons as to why people are punished for not believing?

Because at this present moment, the most plausible explanation I have found is that different religious leaders like playing monopoly with each other.
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Russ

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Re: Muhammed mentioned in the Bible and Torah.
« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2011, 09:46:42 am »
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Because at this present moment, the most plausible explanation I have found is that different religious leaders like playing monopoly with each other.

Agree; I have no problem with religion but I have plenty of problems with organized religion.

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Re: Muhammed mentioned in the Bible and Torah.
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2011, 04:31:02 pm »
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Stupid question:

Assuming that God is all powerful and all loving and all that, why does he even care who worships him? Why is worship even necessary? Furthermore, are there any good reasons as to why people are punished for not believing?

Because at this present moment, the most plausible explanation I have found is that different religious leaders like playing monopoly with each other.


It's not a stupid question.

That's a good question, Does God care if we worship Him? I'll tell you what, I don't really know. I know that God does not need our worship, it won't lessen or increase His power, but worship is for our own good. We need Him, it is a way of communicating with God with your needs-and you are always needy.

Good reasons for being punished for not believing..you are, in a way, disbelieving in your Creator who has created you and gave you what you did not have and taught you what you did not know, And this very moment, you are alive, breathing and that is from His blessings upon you, and many more, so doesn't He deserve your obedience?

Anyway, God always gives a warning before He takes on punishment, because He would want the better for us.

I don't understand your last comment. Elaborate?
Ancient Persian Proverb; " I Wept because i had no Shoes, until i saw a man with no feet!"

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me -- and there was no one left to speak for me.
-Martin Niemoller, a german pastor

Mao

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Re: Muhammed mentioned in the Bible and Torah.
« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2011, 12:58:12 am »
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Good reasons for being punished for not believing..you are, in a way, disbelieving in your Creator who has created you and gave you what you did not have and taught you what you did not know, And this very moment, you are alive, breathing and that is from His blessings upon you, and many more, so doesn't He deserve your obedience?

Anyway, God always gives a warning before He takes on punishment, because He would want the better for us.

So God punishes disbelievers because he is vengeful and jealous? That doesn't sound right for an all powerful being.

What I mean by my last comment is that if God is all benevolent and all powerful as religion(s) claims, then the threat of punishment is nothing but fear-mongering to give religious leaders power over people. All brainwashing.
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bomb

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Re: Muhammed mentioned in the Bible and Torah.
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2011, 01:25:22 am »
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Random question; if Muslim men become suicide terrorists up for 72 virgins, what do some Muslim women become suicide terrorists for?

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ninwa

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Re: Muhammed mentioned in the Bible and Torah.
« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2011, 09:20:21 am »
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Random question; if Muslim men become suicide terrorists up for 72 virgins, what do some Muslim women become suicide terrorists for?

there is such a thing as male virgins :D
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Re: Muhammed mentioned in the Bible and Torah.
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2011, 02:24:34 pm »
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Random question; if Muslim men become suicide terrorists up for 72 virgins, what do some Muslim women become suicide terrorists for?

there is such a thing as male virgins :D

if they wanted male virgins they could have made a world of warcraft account instead :p
besides from being beheaded for showing a little skin to having your own virgins doesn't sound very reasonable.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2011, 02:33:56 pm by bomb »
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