Muhammed mentioned in the Bible and Torah.

[MJRomeo81]

...but don't go making up excuses for it.

What excuses? Do you really think I can persuade you otherwise, and vice versa? That's what I'm saying. It's hardly an excuse.  Fucking hilarious. Strong fail is fail.

Further reading: http://dwhamby1.wordpress.com/2009/08/13/does-the-bible-hate-women/

[pi]

Look at the second google link: http://minglecity.com/profiles/blogs/does-the-bible-hate-women

[MJRomeo81]

You have to remember that in the New Testament (when Jesus was on Earth) things were different. Jesus came to make the world a better place. This is why we have an old and new testament. Back then the Bible reflected how women lived (men did EVERYTHING). Remember that the Bible was written by man. Jesus did treat women with equality and did many things that the men in his day would never have done.

Whether or not you believe in the Bible is one thing. Whether or not you believe in Jesus Christ is another. There are millions of people who couldn't care about the Bible. This comes down to you specifically believe.

So ninwa if reading the Bible turned you atheist (from that it sounds like you were previously religious/neutral), what are your opinions on religion besides the Bible (or besides the old testament)?

[jane1234]

MJRomeo, you could preach scripture at us all day. But at the end of the day, it's just endless white noise and fairy stories. Show proof for such an absurd claim.

I'm not really trying to argue against you (kind of agnostic myself) but you can argue just as much that there is no "proof" for either side. You can't prove that God exists, yet you can't prove that he doesn't. I think in our scientific world we tend to only believe things that are based on logic and fact, which causes the "you must prove there is a God or it doesn't exist" mentality. Someone can interpret "proof" any way they like. Kind of relates to the court system of "innocent until proven guilty" way of thinking, where people must have no reasonable doubt of their guilt whatsoever to charge someone guilty. Doesn't mean they're not guilty.

I think a lot of people have that mentality, that God "doesn't exist until proven that he does" which means that for a person to believe they must have no doubt in their mind that he does exist. Which, in the world of spirituality, is pretty much impossible. Nearly all the religious people I know have some doubts or have had them.

Again, I'm not trying to start a war or anything, I just don't believe you can be as sure as you sound. Just saying.

Out of curiosity, what makes you so antagonistic towards religion?

[Mao]

Have you looked at any of them?

Have you read the Bible? Or are you going off atheist fan pages who take things out of context?

Also, what makes you so sure that someone didn't just write the Bible and make the whole thing up?
How do you know that someone didn't? What makes you so sure and confident?

Once again, if you've actually read the Bible you would understand. Would you bad-mouth a text you have never read? Try reading it and you will find answers.

it's just endless white noise and fairy stories.

I thought Admins had more respect than that. Your statement is offensive and I doubt I'm not the only person offended when I read this. I don't go typing stuff like "you better believe son or i'll condemn you to hell!!!". Once again, I clearly said this is not the place to discuss the existence of God. So I am going to decline your invitation since your post is nothing more than an attempt to get me banned (I know you want me to go on a rant). Your mods probably had a cry in the carbon tax thread.

You've been brainwashed into believing your fairy stories by either your parents...

Highly offensive material. You must feel like a big man sitting behind the PC calling out my family like that...

  you wouldn't believe anyone who told you that balancing a spoon on your nose for 2 hours a day would improve your eyesight unless they could show proof)

Poor analogy. You're a bright one aren't you. Keep embarrassing yourself. Moving along...

but I invite you to investigate the utterly stunning improbability

And evolution isn't an utterly stunning probability?

What's disgusting and abhorrent Daniel is your pathetic attempt to get me banned. I specifically stated I wasn't on ATAR Notes to discuss the existence of God and then I see you insulting my views and challenging me to a debate.

I couldn't give a damn if you have no faith. We all know how religious debates end. No one changes their mind and the guy with less power gets banned. Well I'm not gonna turn it into that.

ATAR Notes (AN) will always be a safe community environment for all denominations of society. This means no racism, homophobia, or discrimination of any kind. Any comments making mass generalisations on the basis of sex, race, religion, or sexual preference must be supported by citable empirical evidence. AN takes a zero-tolerance policy to such bigotry.

You dun' goofed.

This post.

Don't mind me, just having a chuckle over 'ere.

(@Romeo, I suggest you google 'ad hominem' and 'straw-man', just quietly)

[Mao]

Again, I'm not trying to start a war or anything, I just don't believe you can be as sure as you sound. Just saying.

Been there, done that. enwiabe's faith in atheism is as strong as the next religious zealot.

[jane1234]

Again, I'm not trying to start a war or anything, I just don't believe you can be as sure as you sound. Just saying.

Been there, done that. enwiabe's faith in atheism is as strong as the next religious zealot.

  Enwiabe, please don't shoot me...

[ninwa]

...but don't go making up excuses for it.

What excuses? Do you really think I can persuade you otherwise, and vice versa? That's what I'm saying. It's hardly an excuse.  Fucking hilarious. Strong fail is fail.

Further reading: http://dwhamby1.wordpress.com/2009/08/13/does-the-bible-hate-women/

Speaking of fail, you completely missed my point. I was talking about how you were using "but you'll ban me!!!" as an excuse to dodge all the questions that were directed at you.

Also, if you want to throw links around, BOOM http://www.evilbible.com/

So ninwa if reading the Bible turned you atheist (from that it sounds like you were previously religious/neutral), what are your opinions on religion besides the Bible (or besides the old testament)?

I was strongly religious (my family isn't and never was, I had no idea of all the different denominations of Christianity, so for simplicity's sake I'll just say Christian). Enjoyed going to church, prayed every night, read the bible through several times, etc.

I think religion is a cancer which has only hindered scientific development, encouraged the inequality of gender/race/sexuality and the oppression of minorities, and propagated bigotry. I think it brings out the worst in people. There is no altruism under religion, because religious people do good deeds in the hope of it gaining them a ticket into heaven / gaining god's "love" and "forgiveness", rather than because it's a fucking good thing to do. I think the fact that I can do all the good in the world but because I haven't "accepted jesus", this cold-hearted "god" still sees fit to throw me into "hell" is a shit thing.

I don't know why you said "besides the old testament"?

I'm not really trying to argue against you (kind of agnostic myself) but you can argue just as much that there is no "proof" for either side. You can't prove that God exists, yet you can't prove that he doesn't. I think in our scientific world we tend to only believe things that are based on logic and fact, which causes the "you must prove there is a God or it doesn't exist" mentality. Someone can interpret "proof" any way they like. Kind of relates to the court system of "innocent until proven guilty" way of thinking, where people must have no reasonable doubt of their guilt whatsoever to charge someone guilty. Doesn't mean they're not guilty.

Sorry, but if you're going to bring up legal analogies then I have to mention this: the onus of proof is person who makes the positive assertion. Religious people say that god exists; the burden is upon them to prove them. Otherwise, I can assert anything - e.g. I believe there is a ball of talking yarn floating around 1,000,000 light years away in a pool of aeroplane jelly who controls everything we do, you can't prove me wrong therefore it exists and you're all wrong about this god man in the sky.

[Mao]

I'm not really trying to argue against you (kind of agnostic myself) but you can argue just as much that there is no "proof" for either side. You can't prove that God exists, yet you can't prove that he doesn't. I think in our scientific world we tend to only believe things that are based on logic and fact, which causes the "you must prove there is a God or it doesn't exist" mentality. Someone can interpret "proof" any way they like. Kind of relates to the court system of "innocent until proven guilty" way of thinking, where people must have no reasonable doubt of their guilt whatsoever to charge someone guilty. Doesn't mean they're not guilty.

Sorry, but if you're going to bring up legal analogies then I have to mention this: the onus of proof is person who makes the positive assertion. Religious people say that god exists; the burden is upon them to prove them. Otherwise, I can assert anything - e.g. I believe there is a ball of talking yarn floating around 1,000,000 light years away in a pool of aeroplane jelly who controls everything we do, you can't prove me wrong therefore it exists and you're all wrong about this god man in the sky.

If by a ball of talking yarn floating around 1,000,000 light years away in a pool of aeroplane jelly, you mean a teapot floating in solar orbit somewhere in between Earth and Mars, then yes, I agree
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

[ninwa]

Well I didn't wanna rip him off also, aeroplane jelly is cooler.

Also religion debates are a waste of time so this will be my last post on this topic

[enwiabe]

Again, I'm not trying to start a war or anything, I just don't believe you can be as sure as you sound. Just saying.

Been there, done that. enwiabe's faith in atheism is as strong as the next religious zealot.

Atheism does not require faith. It is a rejection of faith. I do not believe nor disbelieve in god. I wait for the correct answer. I don't make some haphazard, uneducated guess, like religious people do. I search for the truth, and until that day comes, I will not commit to a side one way or the other.

I will, however, maintain a very firm skepticism of books written thousands of years ago by primitive humans purporting to be god.

[enwiabe]

it's just endless white noise and fairy stories.

I thought Admins had more respect than that. Your statement is offensive and I doubt I'm not the only person offended when I read this. I don't go typing stuff like "you better believe son or i'll condemn you to hell!!!". Once again, I clearly said this is not the place to discuss the existence of God. So I am going to decline your invitation since your post is nothing more than an attempt to get me banned (I know you want me to go on a rant). Your mods probably had a cry in the carbon tax thread.

I would never ban anybody for voicing an opinion. Hiding behind a straw man argument like "if I argue then you'll ban me" is just silly, and if I were to properly impugn your motives, a bit cowardly.

You've been brainwashed into believing your fairy stories by either your parents...

Highly offensive material. You must feel like a big man sitting behind the PC calling out my family like that...

I'd certainly say that to your face (unless you made it obvious that you were unable to handle such a criticism and were to physically retaliate). But that's not very Christian, now is it. You also haven't addressed what I meant by that statement, did you? Since before you could think for yourself, all your parents have told you is God this, God that. In your formative years, when you were so reliant on your parents you'd actually believe anything they told you. This has a very profound impact on your worldview, and unfortunately it was cruelly misshapen by your parents who cared nought for your intellectual upbringing and only for perpetuating their silly, wholly unsubstantiated beliefs.

 you wouldn't believe anyone who told you that balancing a spoon on your nose for 2 hours a day would improve your eyesight unless they could show proof)

Poor analogy. You're a bright one aren't you. Keep embarrassing yourself. Moving along...

How is it a poor analogy? Merely stating "poor analogy" doesn't make your argument. Would you care to specify how it is a poor analogy?

but I invite you to investigate the utterly stunning improbability

And evolution isn't an utterly stunning probability?

No, it isn't. It is a scientific fact, accepted by everybody who knows how to think for themselves.

What's disgusting and abhorrent Daniel is your pathetic attempt to get me banned. I specifically stated I wasn't on ATAR Notes to discuss the existence of God and then I see you insulting my views and challenging me to a debate.

I couldn't give a damn if you have no faith. We all know how religious debates end. No one changes their mind and the guy with less power gets banned. Well I'm not gonna turn it into that.

ATAR Notes (AN) will always be a safe community environment for all denominations of society. This means no racism, homophobia, or discrimination of any kind. Any comments making mass generalisations on the basis of sex, race, religion, or sexual preference must be supported by citable empirical evidence. AN takes a zero-tolerance policy to such bigotry.

You dun' goofed.

When you come into a public forum, and start spouting your god bullshit, I will call you on it. I don't care if you say "OH I DON'T WANT TO GET INTO THIS THAT AND THE OTHER ARGUMENT". You came into a thread debating religion and offered your $0.02. You don't get to dictate the terms by which I reply. If you want no part of this, then don't view the thread and certainly don't reply. I'm sick of religious people trying to dictate what people can and cannot say about their ridiculous beliefs, lest the poor dears be offended (these same types of people who for millennia, and continuing today, kill people for not believing what they believe unflinchingly and without proof).

Yes, I call religion bullshit. Oops don't like that? Then show some proof. A central tenet of education (which is what this community promotes) is critical thought. Faith and religion violate critical thought processes and corrupt them in a most foul manner. I won't stand for that, and I will call bullshit when I see it. And if you take my calling of your ridiculous religion personally then that's your problem, not mine. I guess when somebody actually shows up how your religion is just utterly absurd and totally unbelievable, that puts you on the back foot. But make no mistake, I'm not attacking you. I'm attacking the suspension of critical thought and reason.

[enwiabe]

MJRomeo, you could preach scripture at us all day. But at the end of the day, it's just endless white noise and fairy stories. Show proof for such an absurd claim.

I'm not really trying to argue against you (kind of agnostic myself) but you can argue just as much that there is no "proof" for either side. You can't prove that God exists, yet you can't prove that he doesn't. I think in our scientific world we tend to only believe things that are based on logic and fact, which causes the "you must prove there is a God or it doesn't exist" mentality. Someone can interpret "proof" any way they like. Kind of relates to the court system of "innocent until proven guilty" way of thinking, where people must have no reasonable doubt of their guilt whatsoever to charge someone guilty. Doesn't mean they're not guilty.

I think a lot of people have that mentality, that God "doesn't exist until proven that he does" which means that for a person to believe they must have no doubt in their mind that he does exist. Which, in the world of spirituality, is pretty much impossible. Nearly all the religious people I know have some doubts or have had them.

Again, I'm not trying to start a war or anything, I just don't believe you can be as sure as you sound. Just saying.

Out of curiosity, what makes you so antagonistic towards religion?

But the problem is that religion is so certain that it's true. It's not marketed as a possibility that it is or is not true. The religious leaders all say (and try to brainwash their congregants) that they know the word of god. Bollocks.

I'm so antagonistic towards religion because I see the damage that it does in the world. The suffering that it causes, and the hardships it inflicts on its adherents. It is very obvious that a suspension of analysis and reason is a big problem in society and ought to be rectified hastily. Pressing forward in a rapidly changing world, we must remain skeptical of bold claims and require proof before believing them.

Atheists don't make bold claims. They simply reject bold claims that have no proof.

[Mao]

Well I didn't wanna rip him off also, aeroplane jelly is cooler.

Also religion debates are a waste of time so this will be my last post on this topic

aww c'mon. We say that every time.

[Truck]

enwiabe + ninwa, I disagree with you two on this (it's a first LOL).

The way you both go on about religion really shows a lack of tolerance for people of other faiths. The problem isn't religion, or people's religious beliefs, rather the problem is humanity itself. Organized religion is pretty much flawed to no end, but our society was built upon the morality which was instilled by religion, also not everything which has come out of christianity, islam, judaism, buddhism, hindus, sikhs etc has been bad, a lot of progress in humanity only occurred because of religion, if we hadn't come up with religions we'd probably still be living in caves tbh... people also need to realize both the old and new testaments are products of the time they're written in. I don't think anyone can claim that they're anything close to perfect, but they were written by men 2000 years ago in an age where (for example) slavery WAS common and accepted... you should honestly be able to pick and choose what you believe in the bible.  

We can talk about the messed up shit people did fighting over religions, like the crusades, ethnic cleansing, etc... But you can also just as easily list wars that occurred because of land, kings, money, love... religion isn't what caused humanity to go into all these wars, hell we'll keep on killing each other irrespective of any religion or any other bullshit like that. So i'm skeptical when you imply that religion is the downfall of humanity or something to that effect, really we're our own worst enemies =P.

religion is a way for people to find meaning in their lives, a way for them to have some sort of moral compass, and hey, I'm glad that you two don't need that because you're smart people who obviously have no need to live your lives that way, but hell, doesn't the existance of humanity violate critical thought processes? how can something simply appear out of nothing? pretty sure that violates my critical thought process right there. we can do a full loop as well - how can an omnipotent being simply exist out of nothing and make something, but my point is there is no true answer, nobody knows and nobody ever will know, so there's no point in you saying all religions are fairy tales because isn't the probability of a religion being correct close to the probability of there being no god at all - BOTH cases, at least in my opinion, don't make much sense because the concept of us existing doesn't make any sense either way.

also, a bit off topic, but i don't see why religion has to always be so against evolution. I mean seriously, just say god created the first cell, or the matter which initiated the big bang, LOL.