UoM General Chat

[jinny1]

i also think that mandatory tute attendance is a bit ridiculous. I get it for pracs where youre actually being assessed on the work, but i can't understand why you'd force students to go to tutes when it's not necessarily beneficial. I feel like we should be able to judge for ourselves whether or not going to tutes is aiding our learning or not, and if its not, it should be fair enough to not go. I went to all my math tutes last semester because I found them helpful, but went to a total of two chem tutes (and regretted it both times) because they were a huge waste of time. I'm so glad I wasn't forced to go to any more than that too.
I feel like by the time we're in uni, we should be able to use our own discretion as to whether or not we want to go to class, and if we don't, we shouldn't be forced to. It's not like the university has a duty of care or anything like that. 


+ I feel like the students who are really struggling are the ones who'd skip the tutes even if theyre mandatory. Or they'd go and not make any effort to learn in them anyways.

You really think a University does not have a duty of care??? wow....i couldn't disagree more with you.

I find things like providing no practice exams or not recording lectures ridiculous....You are being 'assessed' on your ability to attend tutes, i don't find that any more ridiculous than having to sit exams every semester. It's just what you have to do to get good marks.

[scribble]

ability to attend tutes isn't exactly something that needs assessment. I feel like marks should be 'earned', not handed out freely to keep people from failing or whatever.
what im saying is, for some students, tutorial attendance is not "just what you have to do to get good marks" and i feel like that should be respected. Students should be encouraged to study in the way that's most suited to their learning style.

[LeviLamp]

In lots of subjects, the tutorial participation marks require actual participation or evidence that you understand and/or make an effort in understanding or analysing course material; you won't get 10%/10% for just rocking up and sleeping. I do agree that compulsory classes are sort of a pain in certain circumstances, though at least it isn't a subject where every single class is compulsory (German I AM LOOKING AT YOU, THREE COMPULSORY CLASSES A WEEK AND I HAVE A FRIEND WHO LIVES TWO HOURS AWAY AND HAS ONE 4 PM TUTORIAL ON MONDAY FOR THE SUBJECT).

[LeviLamp]

One of my BOTA20004 lecturers is apparently not a UoM staff member, but rather a professor of botany at La Trobe.   

[vox nihili]

One of my BOTA20004 lecturers is apparently not a UoM staff member, but rather a professor of botany at La Trobe.   

I'm sorry to hear that

[ChickenCh0wM1en]

I think mandatory tutorial participation is rather annoying but in some subjects it is crucial. [Subjects like UNIB10003, UNI20013, UNIB30005 who have a 15% mark for tutorial attendance and participation.] Although most people turned up to tutorials for the marks, these tutorials were times of discussion of themes and issues central to the subject which at least for me enabled me to flesh out a decent essay to gain a decent mark.
And as Levi said, they RARELY give out the full marks for tutorial attendance. From what I know for the subject I did, people who spoke up and attended all tutorials didn't get full marks (13/15).
And it's only 1 hour anyway, so not a big deal from what I see anyway...

[Ballerina]

It really should be up to the individual to seize the (usually) fantastic opportunities presented in tutorials. In tertiary education, I'm no longer an extension of my academic obligations but an autonomous entity who can presumably make her own decisions. If I can't, I don't deserve to perform well in a competitive degree.
 
The 7 PM tutorials, oh lawd. During the winter while I was commuting home from them in the pitch dark and 3 layers of clothing, I had a group of teenagers become pissed off when I ignored their catcalls and hurl fruit at me, on a separate occasion a man followed me home from the station and asked demented questions along the way, and a different man did something similar a week later. I live in one of the safest suburbs in Melbourne. And when spring arrived it improved, but it was still not a fair exchange for content which I memorized in Year 11. I know what's best for my learning and safety; not UoM.

Nobody here is saying you dont have a right to your own opinion.

I really hate the belief that once you hit uni, that you shouldn't or need to be guided. School is so drastically different to university that i really appreciated the structure and stability that mandatory practicals and tutorials gave me. I was barely 18 without any idea of how and what to study.I felt like Melbourne uni actively cared about my education at a time that i was completely unsure of myself.

 I'm sure i would still be lost if Melbourne Uni was basically a free for all, do whatever you want, no framework place. I would hate it if Universities held the same belief that all the onus is on the student and that the university, as an entity, is a distant third party. I believe universities, as a place of learning, still have the duty to teach, encourage, engage and actively strive to bring the best out of students.

Going to a tutorial won't hurt your learning. There are going to be plenty of worse things to be worried about when you finish uni.

I interpret all of this as colourful elaboration rather than straw man fallacy, as I'm sure you know that removing mandatory tutorial participation =/= causing a university to become a 'free for all, do whatever you want, no framework place'. All of the advantages above can exist without mandatory tutorials, although I kind of prefer the image of us roaming free like untamed steeds, with manes flowing in the wind ♥ Now I want to go to Tahiti.

[jinny1]

I just dislike the presumption of anything that people have just because one goes to uni,especially the presumption that every fresh out school  kid is autonomous and know exactly what to do.

I am who I am and I goto university not because I'm already autonomous and sure of myself but the exact opposite.

Some people needs to be aware that not everybody attending uni are exactly the same, don't assume anything. I goto uni because I believe they have a duty of care to bring the best out of students even if that student has not yet discovered how to.

I certainly wouldn't have gone to pracs or tutes if they weren't required. If a subject required me to do nothing but sit a single exam then I feel that is a terrible way of trying to educate a student and it is indeed a free for all, do whatever you want, come in as you go place.

Mandatory tutes and pracs helped me, especially  because I had to actively participate where I wouldn't have otherwise. I think it achieved its aim of getting more to come to tutes and getting them actively engaged.


Yes some people don't need mandatory tutes. I've said that the uni cannot please everyone, I just think that people should think about others instead of just their own personal situation when making such judgements.

I can definitely see how it would be regrettable for many people with long commutes. I'm sorry you had to go through that. But I don't think that makes mandatory tutes "ridiculous".

At least we are getting free marks for it and it is just once a week. Unrecorded lectures are so much worse for me because they are 3 times a week and you don't get free marks for it

[charmanderp]

Now that this argument is heating up I'll take the opportunity to remind everyone to be respectful and level-headed etc etc.

[simpak]

I think that people should be expected to attend tutorials.  We have enrolled in a degree at the Parkville campus and we should be expected to attend the Parkville campus - if you look on your study plan, that word is there.  There is no 'Online' or 'At home' option.  As long as you've agreed to enter a degree that is taught from a campus you should be expected to show your face to an authority figure at that campus at least once during the week.  Taking attendance in lectures is too difficult, so it makes sense to take it in a tute.

Secondly, the university wants students to have as much support as possible.  If you take away mandatory tutorials I guarantee the people that won't go are the ones that will say 'I didn't receive enough feedback about my work' and 'I felt that the teachers weren't easily accessible' in their SES form even if they didn't feel like they needed to go to a tutorial at the time.  This will impact on the standing of the teachers in that subject and their ability to be promoted, so it is beneficial to those running the subject to hold a tutorial as it makes students feel more supported --> they enjoy the subject more and give better feedback --> they do better in the subject and the class average is higher rather than having >30% of the cohort fail --> people with higher grades on their transcript are more likely to get into postgraduate study, which is the aim of the Melbourne model, or arguably get some jobs.

Thirdly, don't you just prefer the work to be discussed in a tute or completed in a tute to be confined to one hour with guidance so that you know exactly how the teachers (tutor) want you to complete similar work in an exam or in future studies?  I do...otherwise I would probably spend 3 times as long on the same work because I am the least efficient person and I dedicate far too much time to study.

Fourthly, tutorials are smaller class sizes and promote interaction between students which is inherently beneficial to their learning even if people prefer to study alone.  We are all guilty of coming here and seeking help but not everyone at university uses a forum.  When you are placed in a room with a smaller number of people it is easier to make friends in the class and therefore have a source that you can go to on Facebook or once a week and say 'hey, I didn't understand this, did you?'.  Smaller class sizes promote better learning and if the university just has lectures full of 200 people they're not really helping students perform to their best even if those students are autonomous.  It's incredibly difficult to make a good friend in the 5 minutes before your lecture starts.

[lzxnl]

Making friends in compulsory tutes? I like the sound of that.

[Ballerina]

@jinny Presumptions are a given, whether it's the presumption that a student can make mandatory tutorials because they aren't working 30 hours a week to support themselves, or the presumption that a student needs tutorials to be enforced in order to attend them. While being an adult goes hand in hand with needing to be autonomous (whether or not the desire to be is there) I agree we can't make the presumption they are. Which is why it should be their choice to rise to that challenge; the choice shouldn't be made for them. It's part of the process to 'have a duty of care to bring the best out of students'; fostering responsibility.

And that would be your decision. Absence of mandatory tutorials can't logically be equated to 'do nothing but sit a single exam', they're different topics. Agreed, exams are an outdated method of assessment... the emphasis exams have on rote learning is particularly redundant during the technology age. I do well on closed book examinations because I can mindlessly memorize chunks of information like Google does. Open book examinations which require analysis and understanding of material, are so much more useful in practical employment.

The university can't, which is why it's best left to the student to make their own choice. Allowing that is the very definition of considering others' situations, and embracing diverse learning styles.

Ugh, unrecorded lectures really are inconsiderate. I attend the lectures I need to, but not everyone can, especially due to work. Australia has great class mobility, but lecturers cough Trevor Smith cough who disable their recordings have clearly never experienced trying to move from a working class background to a higher class bracket.

@simpak, All great advantages of tutorials in general. I consolidated more knowledge from my chemistry tutorials than I ever did my lectures*.  However, not advantages of mandatory tutorials, as per above.

*Penny Commons (a tutor and possibly a celestial being ♥) would appear when I thought of her. Like a genie. I shit you not. Walking out of Copland Theatre, thinking about needed to email her about a formula sheet > I literally ran into her. Went to buy coffee from Castro's, making a mental checklist of questions for her chemlab session > she joins the queue. Walking home, getting emotional~ that we scored the best tutor for CHEM10004 > she waves to me from her car.

[Thu Thu Train]

If you don't go to non-compulsory tutes or lectures you're only wasting your own time and money ("ohh but the government pays for it" yeah and you have to pay it back...). You're missing out on valuable time to get help with problems you're having with the learning material so why wouldn't you go?

[Ballerina]

^ Concur, though there are obvious exceptions. I keep returning to my MBB2 tutorials...I was more productive in the 2 hours of the 1 tutorial I missed, than I ever was at 7 PM during the remaining tutorials. Not to mention the Quantitative Methods tutorials where they familiarized us with SPSS, a program I've used for the past 3 years.

[Thu Thu Train]

Obviously there are a lot of exceptions. Laziness and "I don't feel like I need to go" or "I think tutes are useless" (actual excuses I've heard/used myself) are not valid excuses though.