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May 02, 2025, 08:11:43 pm

Author Topic: UoM General Chat  (Read 5217639 times)  Share 

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alondouek

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Re: UoM General Chat
« Reply #7020 on: May 19, 2014, 09:08:35 pm »
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First things first:

I know, I'm making more enemies in this thread by the day, I just really feel it was important to put this into perspective.

Absolutely not, because unlike the SA everyone here is willing to listen to and consider your point of view without arbitrarily labelling you a "bigot" and devaluing the term by doing so.

Now onto the meat of your post:
Now, I'm a fan of neither party involved in this incident. But I was also particularly horrified by the complete logical inconsistencies, outrageously rhetorical claims and vitriolic remarks that were posted on the unimelb confessions page. I was first angered and saddened by the comments about the protest on QandA, and now I feel the same about this.

The reason that people have instantaneous negative reactions to "protest" actions by the SA and associated groups is that everything those groups do is alienating.

If you turn up to uni on your first day and decline to sign a petition shoved in your face and are labelled a homophobe for it (never mind that said petition has nothing to do with homosexuality or marriage equality etc.), you feel alienated by these people.

If you are a member of an ethno-cultural university club or society with ideological differences differences to the SA, and they vandalise the property of that society at events because of it, you feel alienated.

If you are moderate - be it on the right, left or centre of politics - and don't condone harassment and abuse of yourself or anyone else because of these people's ideological tendencies, you feel alienated.

And when a group alienates you and abuses you then you hate them and what they stand for. That's why people said those things on the 'unimelb confessions' page (which I admittedly have not seen); they have throughout their university years had to put up with flyer being thrust in their face, had causes they care about poisoned by the presence and rhetoric of these people, and copped abuse for denouncing their alienating practices.

It is completely disempowering to be a youth in today's society. If you are vocal about your beliefs you're a troublemaker, disrespectful and ill-behaved. If you do nothing, you're ignorant, lazy and self-absorbed, but you're also acceptable, because you lie within a large group of people who are politically malleable and easy to take advantage of. The deregulation of university fees won't have any significant effect on politics in Australia - that is, unless it makes its way to mainstream media and develops a large backing from the majority. Socialist Alternative, in that regard, is doing a good thing. They're taking an issue and consistently placing it back in mainstream media as a way of forcing people to realise that there is a strong opposition to the deregulation. I agree that it's a little puerile, I've posted in this thread before about how I don't like they're way of going about things - but shit, what have any of us done that's so much better?

I read this and it smells of persecution complex. Yes, youths nowadays do cop it from parts of the media who are uncomfortable at living in today's world, at not being the youngest generation - the ones who can and in time will bring about change. But to take the stance of accepting the mantle of what these people in the media are saying is to legitimise it. Only by doing this are we disempowering ourselves.

I agree that the right, and sometimes the responsibility, to protest is vital. I'm all for it, like (I'd imagine) most of our contemporaries. But as above, the caveat that keeps people away is that by protesting, people are often thrust together with groups like the SA who effectively ruin every movement they co-opt.

Need I remind you of the March in March protests? What did many of the protest banners read? Were they actually protesting an idea, like the influential protests of past generations?

No. There were banners of (ironically) "FUCK DEMOCRACY" and "FUCK TONY ABBOTT". I have no love for Tony Abbott but that's a pathetic protest. Instead of actually protesting, they insult. Instead of fighting for betterment, they mud-sling. Instead of initiating discourse, they 'poison the well'.

The SA-affiliated people with these banners were wasting their opportunity to actually talk about what think should change. Instead, they used the marches to push for their political endgame of "revolution", a hilariously ambiguous and frankly ridiculous goal that lacks definition and is naught but a buzzword.

What's stopping today's youth from protesting isn't laziness, or self-absorption, or fear or being labelled a troublemaker or disrespectful. It's the fear of alienation and association with ultra-left thugs, who take causes that people care about and wreck them in pursuit of their ideals and theirs alone.

Moreover, there is no 'appropriate' or 'inappropriate' time to protest. I can only imagine this generation's response to revolutions they probably see as 'justified' in modern day society.

Eureka stockade: Oh god, can't you just write a letter to colony complaining? Or sign a petition? I really don't like all this thuggish behaviour!

Rosa parks bus sit in: Damnit Rosa, you're totally disrupting me from getting home. Can't you just stand up and like, talk to the bus driver afterwards to try and explain your point of view?

Stonewall riots: You guys totally didn't have to get violent. Can't you just show them your identity cards and get on with your repressed homosexual lifestyle?? It's not like it makes a difference anyway. No one's gonna respect you more if you flaunt your sexuality in our faces!

Do you guys see what I'm getting at? I know, I'm making more enemies in this thread by the day, I just really feel it was important to put this into perspective.

Edited for typos.

While I agree with your underlying premise, your examples do not reflect the situation at hand. No-one here is criticising any cause or any movement other than the Socialist Alternative. In fact, it's the opposite; by denouncing the SA and their pernicious "support" for important social causes and movements, we protect those movements from alienation and open them up to people who do care and do want to protest but because they (understandably) want nothing to do with the SA.

What were Lalor and Ross fighting for at the Eureka Rebellion? They were fighting for rights and an ideal.

What was Rosa Parks protesting in favour of when she boycotted racial segregation? She was fighting for rights and an ideal.

What was the gay community fighting for during the Stonewall riots? They were fighting for rights and an ideal.

But what does the Socialist Alternative do? They aren't fighting for rights, or ideals. They're taking causes where people should be fighting for rights and ideals, and instead using those causes as a mouthpiece for their radical, revolutionary political agenda.
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vox nihili

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Re: UoM General Chat
« Reply #7021 on: May 19, 2014, 09:19:54 pm »
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But what does the Socialist Alternative do? They aren't fighting for rights, or ideals. They're taking causes where people should be fighting for rights and ideals, and instead using those causes as a mouthpiece for their radical, revolutionary political agenda.

This is somewhat unfair. Most of their rhetoric on the budget has been within the realms of sanity. Today, they were standing up for accessible education. There's nothing radical or revolutionary about that.
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alondouek

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Re: UoM General Chat
« Reply #7022 on: May 19, 2014, 09:30:15 pm »
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This is somewhat unfair. Most of their rhetoric on the budget has been within the realms of sanity. Today, they were standing up for accessible education. There's nothing radical or revolutionary about that.

Based on historical precedent, is it really unfair? I posit that it's not.

But good to see that they've turned down the antics for the rally against education cuts. If ever there were a cause that I wouldn't want them to ruin it's that one.
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xenial

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Re: UoM General Chat
« Reply #7023 on: May 19, 2014, 09:40:21 pm »
+1
Agreed, but I just didn't see much that was wrong about their protest today. You can't denounce protest because it disrupts everyday flow - because it has to at some point. We completely undermine democracy otherwise. And I think the accounts of 'aggression' were media hype, unless anyone was there to prove me wrong.

I just feel like we've adopted the stigma that's been thrust upon us. We almost believe we shouldn't have a voice, or be angry about the injustices that affect our generation. We reprimand people who protest almost in the same way our parents did to us when we were too vocal or ill-behaved. Maybe it's a persecution complex, but that's my impression of this anti-protest culture, anyway.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 09:44:27 pm by xenial »

xenial

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Re: UoM General Chat
« Reply #7024 on: May 19, 2014, 09:43:42 pm »
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Kind of funny lol, I've spent the whole night sitting at my computer and complaining about my education and zero time actually doing work for my degree.. yeah I should really go do something.

alondouek

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Re: UoM General Chat
« Reply #7025 on: May 19, 2014, 09:52:26 pm »
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Agreed, but I just didn't see much that was wrong about their protest today. You can't denounce protest because it disrupts everyday flow - because it has to at some point. We completely undermine democracy otherwise. And I think the accounts of 'aggression' were media hype, unless anyone was there to prove me wrong.

I just feel like we've adopted the stigma that's been thrust upon us. We almost believe we shouldn't have a voice, or be angry about the injustices that affect our generation. We reprimand people who protest almost in the same way our parents did to us when we were too vocal or ill-behaved. Maybe it's a persecution complex, but that's my impression, anyway.

I totally agree that protests are meant to be disruptive to an extent; that's their underlying feature and what makes them noticeable. The issue I take is when a group overrides the true message of a protest to support their own. Given that in the March in March protests certain members were carrying "Fuck Democracy" banners, I'd argue that by doing this sort of thing, they're undermining democracy far more than anything.

Re: Adopting a stigma; your political persuasion, as with anything else, is what you make of it. I know that I'm not going to look at any media outlet to tell me what I think or how people my age should act in terms of politics because it's my decision. I have never personally felt any pressure to conform to a certain way of thinking politically - maybe I'm fortunate in that regard but I hardly believe that I'm in the minority.

Kind of funny lol, I've spent the whole night sitting at my computer and complaining about my education and zero time actually doing work for my degree.. yeah I should really go do something.

Same here hahahaha. If education cuts mean that I don't have 9 assignments due in the next week and a half, then maybe it's not so bad...

jks jks it's terrible economic policy
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xenial

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Re: UoM General Chat
« Reply #7026 on: May 19, 2014, 09:57:16 pm »
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I totally agree that protests are meant to be disruptive to an extent; that's their underlying feature and what makes them noticeable. The issue I take is when a group overrides the true message of a protest to support their own. Given that in the March in March protests certain members were carrying "Fuck Democracy" banners, I'd argue that by doing this sort of thing, they're undermining democracy far more than anything.

Haha nah we agree there. ITT a couple dozen pages ago is me complaining about their 'fuck Tony Abbott' slogan. Now that is a useless protest.

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Re: UoM General Chat
« Reply #7027 on: May 19, 2014, 09:59:41 pm »
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Based on historical precedent, is it really unfair? I posit that it's not.

But good to see that they've turned down the antics for the rally against education cuts. If ever there were a cause that I wouldn't want them to ruin it's that one.

No based on history it's not. But they deserve to be taken on face value I think. Whack jobs doing whack job things but talking about good points.

It's a little bit sad actually. I know plenty of people who would be perfectly described as being socialists, yet they don't want to call themselves that because of SA. It kind of makes sense why people become conservatives...
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brenden

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Re: UoM General Chat
« Reply #7028 on: May 19, 2014, 10:07:12 pm »
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No based on history it's not. But they deserve to be taken on face value I think. Whack jobs doing whack job things but talking about good points.

It's a little bit sad actually. I know plenty of people who would be perfectly described as being socialists, yet they don't want to call themselves that because of SA. It kind of makes sense why people become conservatives...
I hate them but agree with their politics (if you shift me to the right a bit... so... pretty radical left)
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alondouek

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Re: UoM General Chat
« Reply #7029 on: May 19, 2014, 10:14:42 pm »
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No based on history it's not. But they deserve to be taken on face value I think. Whack jobs doing whack job things but talking about good points.

It's a little bit sad actually. I know plenty of people who would be perfectly described as being socialists, yet they don't want to call themselves that because of SA. It kind of makes sense why people become conservatives...

The precedent of them damaging good causes is an evident one, though. I know and have spoken to numerous people who, despite being passionately in favour of marriage equality, have refused to march at rallies if the SA are present. This is the alienation I was discussing earlier, and it's certainly not doing the overall cause any favours.

I too know a good few socialists, and I admire some of them for being both reasonable and progressive. I also call myself fortunate to not personally know anyone of the more radical variety.

As for your point on conservatism; it should be noted that political outlook is a spectrum and that there are (depressingly, in some cases - especially towards the extremes in my opinion) people who fulfil every niche. Not being on the far left doesn't make you an outright conservative, the exact same way that disagreeing with policies such as those listed in the 2014 budget doesn't make you a raving SA bellend.

As someone who considers himself to be at the centre (perhaps a bit idealistically), I find the tendency of groups at both the extreme right and left to both alienate and proselytise incredibly distasteful.

I hate them but agree with their politics (if you shift me to the right a bit... so... pretty radical left)

If by "shift you to the right" you mean "actually place you back on the spectrum" then I'm happy because the SA is so far left they've fallen off.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 10:16:13 pm by alondouek »
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jinny1

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Re: UoM General Chat
« Reply #7030 on: May 19, 2014, 10:46:51 pm »
-2
"Former Liberal MP Sophie Mirabella mobbed at Melbourne University, escorted by police"
http://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/former-liberal-mp-sophie-mirabella-mobbed-at-melbourne-university-escorted-by-police/story-fn84fgcm-1226922550589

Hugs and kisses to the tutor who was struck in the head due to the Socialist Alliance's alleged actions.

dayummmm....Sydney University is rubbing off on us -.-

Also why is it always the Arts students doing these sort of stuff?? The Science students are like the well-behaved calm sibling with an annoying little brother who likes to throw violent tantrums....
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 10:55:26 pm by jinny1 »
:D :) ;D :D :) ;D :D :) ;D :D :) ;D :D :) ;D :D :) ;D                               

literally lauren

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Re: UoM General Chat
« Reply #7031 on: May 19, 2014, 11:39:48 pm »
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Head of SA: "This budget is literally murdering people."
I could almost put up with their constant leafleting interrupting the first 10 minutes of all my lectures, but when they start butchering the word 'literally' I get mad.
She also denied it was a violent protest, though apparently campus security choked her until she couldn't breathe *doubtful face*

Also why is it always the Arts students doing these sort of stuff?? The Science students are like the well-behaved calm sibling with an annoying little brother who likes to throw violent tantrums....
I swear some of us are normal. Deep down.
ITT a couple dozen pages ago is me complaining about their 'fuck Tony Abbott' slogan. Now that is a useless protest.
Yeah, that ad hominem is some desperate bullshit right there.
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Re: UoM General Chat
« Reply #7032 on: May 20, 2014, 12:02:44 am »
+3
Also something tells me there's going to be an awful lot of this outside the library tomorrow



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Re: UoM General Chat
« Reply #7033 on: May 20, 2014, 12:11:04 am »
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Went in the lab for 14 hours and then come back to THIS what happened...wat
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Re: UoM General Chat
« Reply #7034 on: May 20, 2014, 12:15:34 am »
+1
Also something tells me there's going to be an awful lot of this outside the library tomorrow

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