UoM - Arts (Politics and International Studies/Crimonology) Questions!

[bodriagin]

Hi everyone,

So I've recently been thinking about what subjects I might want to pursue next year as a major in Arts and Economics was one of things that intrigued me. I'm doing Economics this year and absolutely love it. According to various sources however, Economics in VCE compared to Economics/Commerce in university is extremely different (apparently it's 80% mathematics in university). Can anyone who's doing Economics in university confirm this?

Also, I haven't completed Mathematical Methods 3/4 but I HAVE completed Mathematical Methods 1/2 which means I can fulfill the prerequisite of Economics through completing https://handbook.unimelb.edu.au/view/2011/MAST10012 as a breadth. I have absolutely no memory of Methods 1/2 at all (up to the point where I'd need to relearn everything). Would it be a terrible idea to take up this breadth subject and do Economics? How would it work if I chose to do this? Would I be learning Methods 3/4 WHILE learning Economics which requires the use of Methods 3/4? :s I'd also like to know whether the breadth course will reteach the concepts of Methods 1/2 to ensure the understanding of Methods 3/4 or is it essentially just Methods 3/4 that's being taught? Simply, will I require knowledge of Methods 1/2 in order to learn this Methods 3/4 university course?

How competitive is Economics as a major in Arts? Am I competing against the Commerce students? Also, how competitive are the Methods 3/4, Criminology, and Politics and International Studies courses?

Lastly, I'm also interested in picking up Politics and International Studies as a major however I didn't do International Studies in VCE and was wondering whether I'd be disadvantaged because of this. Does this major have relevance to law in general? Or would Criminology have more relevance? Criminology to me, seems to be more about the powers of police and the general protection of society though. Is this true? Is Politics as a subject extremely competitive and would an 80% be difficult to achieve in this subject? I have a decent background in English (but am a slow writer).

I'm aiming for an average of 80%+ due to future prospects of being competitive in applying for a JD. How hard is this to achieve considering a decent amount of study (how much study per night/week would I be expected to do to achieve these scores? I know it's relative to each person but I'd just like an indicator of how much the workload is).

Thank you and sorry about the long post!

[Kopite]

I did macro and micro three years ago at uom, so my memory is probably hazy, but it didnt involve that much maths. Don't think you would need methods for it, i'm pretty sure further would suffice.

[tram]

Economics does get rather maths heavy towards third year, but doing economics in first year requires only a very very basic understanding of maths, no methods techniques are used at all in first year. where you might struggle a bit is with the compulsory quantitative subjects, QM1/QM2/econometrics. Having not as yet touched theses subjects myself i can't comment on them but many people have seem to struggled with it, it's very statistics heavy.

So essentially, do first year eco, you will be fine, do the maths subjects at the same time and see how you go.

In terms of competition that you mention quite a few times, for eco you are in the same classes as commerce students, it's all the same subject, however more broadly you need to stop thinking about 'competiton' it's less a case of 'competing' with each other, because in uni you get a score and it reflects your mark, as opposed to VCE where you score represents your ranking. If you get 90% on an exam, your mark is 90% (ignoring moderation if the exam is too hard/too easy in whihc case everyone gets moved) as opposed to in vce where if you get 90% but everyone else gets 95% you could get a low study score because it's a ranking.

As for the other issues with subjects, just try it all out in first year and pick what you enjoy-i know it's been said a million times- but it's really true, don't pick something because you think it's more related to law.

Finally in terms of study, if you're that keen on doing well follow the 2 hours at home for every contact hour rule of thumb and you should be set for a decent mark.

[bodriagin]

Excellent response. Thank you!

Apparently Arts students (probably all university students) also get subject counseling before they select their majors/minors/breadths so hopefully I can straighten out a couple other questions.

Can someone who has completed MAST10012 Introduction to Mathematics, explain whether previous knowledge of Mathematical Methods is required to be successful in this course? And also whether the completion of this course will suffice for the rest of Economics, including third year (keep in mind that I DO want to do well (high distinctions). Thank you!

As Tram said, I'm a little worried about Quantitative Methods as the outline of the course seems to be purely probability. I can't tell whether it relies on Further Mathematics or Methods though. If it's Further then I shouldn't have a problem but I'm a little worried if the concepts require an extensive mathematical background. I'm actually a pretty competent mathematics student, (40+ in Further), I just have no knowledge of Mathematical Methods due to not choosing to learn it in year 12.

https://handbook.unimelb.edu.au/view/2012/ECON10005

https://handbook.unimelb.edu.au/view/2012/ECON20003

[tram]

I just had a look at the economics brochure. If you just want to do economics as a minor, you don't officially have to do any more maths subjects at all.

However if you want to major in economics, you HAVE to do three quantitative subjects (QM1, QM2 and then basic econometrics/econometrics).

Personally even if you were just going for the minor i think you would want to have a little more maths knowledge behind you than just MAST10012, but it's probably possible to get away with out it if you are prepared to put in extra work when it gets mathsy, but if you want to do the major then you don't have a choice.

[dc302]

How competitive is Economics as a major in Arts? Am I competing against the Commerce students? Also, how competitive are the Methods 3/4, Criminology, and Politics and International Studies courses?

Yes you are competing against commerce students. I would say you should try and do a bit of first year maths, because even though the exact maths will not likely be used, it is good and important in developing your analytic skills, which is very important in economics I believe.

I'm aiming for an average of 80%+ due to future prospects of being competitive in applying for a JD. How hard is this to achieve considering a decent amount of study (how much study per night/week would I be expected to do to achieve these scores? I know it's relative to each person but I'd just like an indicator of how much the workload is).

It is quite hard to achieve 80+ unless you are naturally good at the subject (in my opinion). If economics just happens to click with you, then you'll be fine. For other people though, either very good cramming/understanding skills or keeping up to date with a solid few hours of revision each week is probably needed for 80+, or even 75+.

[simpak]

The workload is pretty high in my opinion, but yes it depends on how you work personally.
During the semester I spend most of my time at my desk, though, and much more than in year twelve.

For crim and int studies it really depends.  You have two classes of Arts students - those that want to get into the JD and those that just want to get their Arts degree (GOD KNOWS WHY).  As one of the former you are going to be up against a lot of competition and under a fair amount of stress to keep up your average.  But it's not impossible - the majority of people I know who want to get into the JD can quite easily maintain an average in the low to mid 80s.  But they do have to work for it.  There is often a misconception that an Arts degree will be quite easy and laid back.  This is quite unfortunate, for while an Arts degree is utterly useless in itself it certainly isn't an easy thing to obtain if you aim to use it as a springboard for anything else.

[bodriagin]

Thanks for all the replies.

I think my only question left is basically: will MAST10012 Introduction to Mathematics reteach the concepts of Methods 1/2 or does the course assume that you have complete knowledge of all Methods 1/2 concepts (basically they're just expanding on your previous knowledge)?

[dc302]

Thanks for all the replies.

I think my only question left is basically: will MAST10012 Introduction to Mathematics reteach the concepts of Methods 1/2 or does the course assume that you have complete knowledge of all Methods 1/2 concepts (basically they're just expanding on your previous knowledge)?

I haven't done the subject, but from the description in the handbook, it looks like you are supposed to know methods 1/2 concepts, but as with a lot of uni subjects, my belief is that you can easily catch up if you try. I think you will be just fine--if it seems a little overwhelming at first, you have pleeeenty of time to read up on what you've forgotten.

[Russ]

Based on trying to help a student with the comparable subject at Monash, it will drop you in the deep end of Methods 3/4 and try and rush through the course. If you haven't done maths for a year, you'll also probably have forgotten a fair bit of it. If you're going to do it, I'd strongly recommend you prepare in february and just go over the concepts and make sure you're ready.

(also, don't take advice on the difficulty of maths subjects from the kid who did a pure maths degree in 2 years. ily dc302)

[dc302]

[bodriagin]

Based on trying to help a student with the comparable subject at Monash, it will drop you in the deep end of Methods 3/4 and try and rush through the course. If you haven't done maths for a year, you'll also probably have forgotten a fair bit of it. If you're going to do it, I'd strongly recommend you prepare in february and just go over the concepts and make sure you're ready.

(also, don't take advice on the difficulty of maths subjects from the kid who did a pure maths degree in 2 years. ily dc302)

Hm, okay I guess it's best I try and stay away from Mathematical Methods required concepts. I'll keep Economics in mind but I think the best choice for now, is to have it as a minor/breadth (just the Economic subjects).

I have a few questions regarding Politics and International Studies now for anyone that's currently doing it.

I've been reading the handbook on it (Politics and International Studies) and it seems as though it doesn't require many examinations. Can anyone that's doing this as a major clarify this? There rather seems to be a HUGE emphasis on written assessment tasks - up to 6,000 word research tasks. I have, as said above, a very good English background but I suffer from getting ideas down onto paper so these external tasks would be extremely advantageous for me. Also, I've been seeing 'take home' examinations a lot. What are these? Are they essentially examinations that you take home and complete outside of university? (Couldn't people just cheat and get a third year student to do them instead? - pretty stupid idea to me if this is the case).

I'm very interested and keen to learn the subject of politics, international relations, law and so on. Would this as a major be better than Criminology? Keep in mind that I've done Legal Studies and am expecting a 45+ so I don't know whether I'd be disadvantaged doing Politics as a major.

Lastly, IS Politics relatively hard compared to the other majors? And could anyone (if possible) upload an examination or outline the difficulty and layout of the Politics examinations?

Thank you!

 

[simpak]

A take home exam is basically an essay that you write in two days - you only get the topic a couple of days before it's due so you don't have much time to cram in everything and write it.

Politics depends on the year you take it - for my year there were no essays in the exam and only short answer style responses.  I think politics is a hard major to take!  Not in terms of understanding the content but in terms of understanding how to write the essays properly I found it very difficult.

They don't usually give out exams so it would be difficult to upload one.  My questions for AusPol were things like 'what differentiates the lower house from the senate' and you had to write on eight questions, 250 words each in an hour.  In Arts, exams are often not the main focus - essays tend to be where most of the marks are allocated.

Okay I read your post once and I am drunk so I am hoping I have answered a couple of questions there I can't feel my fingers though (y)

[Xavier1234]

I pretty much am in the same boat as you are, and what I can say is
QM is really hard if you're not stats inclined or at least haven't dealt with as much stats (as I have).

Don't worry about Mast10012. Your lecturer, Liz Bailey is very competent and quite nice. And she doesn't drone on, so you shouldn't have much problems with the subject. The content is not tough either. However, the assignments do get a bit ridiculous. (IDK if that's just me)

I didn't have any VCE background on Pols Sci and International Relations (IR) but I found them to be the best subjects I've so far had the pleasure to take in uni. I definitely recommend INTS10001, and if you're up for it, Australian Pols. Lecturers for both subjects are very very good, and the majority of the content of both subjects are quite contemporary. However, as mavis pointed, the essays are a major pain. (especially the 50% interpols HOLY COW)

Lastly, if you really love eco, you should reconsider taking Intro Micro on Sem 2. Lecturer, while having been the Foreign Minister in Keating(I think) government, was really crap. Like, REALLY crap.

[Xavier1234]

Also, in the pols major, the required subjects, Critical Anal(ytical) Skills, and Applied Research Meths, according to older year friends, are boring. Just sayin