Dont you forgot everything when you work ahead on holidays?

[Special At Specialist]

The student who studies Methods twice will do better than the student who studies Methods once
The student who studies Methods three times will do better than the student who studies Methods twice
and so on

Just keep studying Methods until the penny drops

And then do some more

I will assure you, if I were to repeat methods, it'll be highly unlikely I'll see much of an improvement in my study score, it's cause there are a lot of other issues (careless mistakes is one of them) which aren't solved by doing the course multiple times

But I heard experience with exams reduces the chance of making careless mistakes...

[max payne]

The student who studies Methods twice will do better than the student who studies Methods once
The student who studies Methods three times will do better than the student who studies Methods twice
and so on

Just keep studying Methods until the penny drops

And then do some more

Disagree.

Disagree with your disagreement. practice makes perfect. the more questions you do, the easier the questions would appear the second time round or even the third. regardless of if you work "smarter" or not, because you can always just work even smarter the second time round.when it comes to vce learning the course is similar to lets say learning a new sport: the more you practice, the better you get. but feel free to disagree with me i dont mind. everyone is entitled to their opinion. this is mine.

[Planck's constant]

Disagree with your disagreement. practice makes perfect. the more questions you do, the easier the questions would appear the second time round or even the third. regardless of if you work "smarter" or not, because you can always just work even smarter the second time round.when it comes to vce learning the course is similar to lets say learning a new sport: the more you practice, the better you get. but feel free to disagree with me i dont mind. everyone is entitled to their opinion. this is mine.

I agree with you in more ways than one, max payne.

I reckon we would be doing those Year 10's and 11's looking at these froums for guidance a GREAT DISSERVICE if we were to suggest that VCE is a walk in the park. It is not. It is a 12-24 month boot camp.

And an ATAR of 99.95 is NOT a certificate of intelligence, it is actually proof that normally intelligent people can achieve academically if they are prepared to work hard.

Back to Methods.
I am totally convinced that the approach I outilned in my two previous posts is 100% on the money.
Many students embark on their VCE campaign with a plan to make Mathematics the cornerstone of their VCE.
For this reason I believe that IDEALLY those students should attempt Methods 3/4 in Year 11. There are 3 reasons for this :

1) You can give Methods your undivided attention in Year 11. This means that you can invest the time required to execute the study plan I mentioned in my previous post.
2) You will get a more realistic picture of what it is required of you to do well in your Year 12 VCE subjects
3) Methods is a good foundation for Specialist Maths, and it actually makes Specialist seem a lot easier than it actually is. The only concept in Specialist which would appear new to someone who has completed methods would be Vector polar form & Complex polar form. Everything else, including Locus,  Differential Equations and Vector Calculus are relatively simple extensions of concepts already known by Methods 3/4 and Specialist 1/2 students. Whereas Methods, though in theory simpler, it contains more NEW concepts for people to learn, eg Calculus & Probability (Markov Chains, Probability Density functions etc)



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[nubs]

For this reason I believe that IDEALLY those students should attempt Methods 3/4 in Year 11. There are 3 reasons for this :

1) You can give Methods your undivided attention in Year 11. This means that you can invest the time required to execute the study plan I mentioned in my previous post.
2) You will get a more realistic picture of what it is required of you to do well in your Year 12 VCE subjects
3) Methods is a good foundation for Specialist Maths, and it actually makes Specialist seem a lot easier than it actually is.

Conversely, one could argue that it wouldn't be the best decision to take up Methods in year 11 using these reasons:
1) Methods is more focused on grasping and understanding concepts, and then learning how to apply them. There really isn't much memorising involved, so as a result, dedicating an entire year to methods alone would seem as a bit of a waste, especially if you plan to do subjects in your following year that require you to do a lot of memorising (you should choose these subjects in year 11 when you have time).
2) If you wait an extra year, you will be more mature and will have attained a greater capacity for understanding the concepts required for Methods. Not many primary kids are taught that 1 divided by 0 is undefined, but instead they are told it equals zero, why? Because many of them are unable to grasp such a 'complex' concept at that age. Similarly, if you wait an extra year, you will have developed a greater capacity for understanding the material in Methods, and the material isn't particularly easy to comprehend. This is why one might pick up a subject like Biology in year 11, where it is necessary to memorise and understand a vast amount of material, and the concepts are relatively easy to grasp when compared to methods.
3) If you do plan on doing specialist math, doing methods along side it makes methods ridiculously easier. If you do well at specialist, the calculus and circular function portion of the methods course (which makes up to 70% of both exams) becomes ridiculously simple. Furthermore, the level of understanding required to tackle specialist is elevated when studying it, and this has a general effect on your ability to comprehend the concepts in methods as well.

If you want to get the most out of your ATAR, then for a year 11 subject, for most students I would suggest that you should choose a subject that isn't too complex, but it requires a lot of time to do well in it. This way you can dedicate most of your time in year 11 and still perform to the best of your ability. Unless you are extremely good at maths, I wouldn't advise you to take up methods in year 11. If you want to get the best possible result for methods, then doing it in year 12 will give you the best shot at getting that result, especially if you do specialist maths alongside it. Just my opinion though

[dc302]

Practice can make perfect but practice can cause burn out, stress and a variety of other things. Especially if you're not practicing the right thing. I don't understand why so many people think more always equals better--it doesn't always.

[max payne]

about doing methods in year 11, i believe that having a whole year to focus on it far outweighs the negatives of being a mere 12 months 'immature'. there really isnt that much of a difference between 17 and 18 years old. and whatever the difference is can easily be made up for by spending alot more time on it and perfecting the concepts which i believe their is more time to do in year 11...not that it cant be done in year 12, just that its alot harder. i did further this year in year 11 and i can say withought a doubt, that if i had undettaken it in year 12 i would have underestimated it, neglected alot of study and probably make alot of silly mistakes in the exam from the shere reason that i didnt practice enough and expose myself many different questions. plus the focus you have of only having one subject during exam time is invaluable- i remember yer 12s talking about their biology exam-
 and tbh if i knew what i know now, i would of done methods 3&4 with further in year 11...so regretting it:(

[Planck's constant]

Conversely, one could argue that it wouldn't be the best decision to take up Methods in year 11 using these reasons:

You are entitled to your opinion, but unfortunately your opinion defies common experience.

Many schools operate a Maths streaming process which starts as early as Year 7.
One of the unstated aims of streaming is to identify those students who are capable of undertaking Methods 1/2 in Year 10 and 3/4 in Year 11.
They would not do this without a reason, and the reason is that it offers the best chance for doing the amount of work necessary to MASTER Mathematical Methods. Dedicating your undivided attention for one whole year to Methods is a huge advantage.

Bottom line is, that most good Maths students do Methods in Year 11. Not only that, but those students outperform the students who do Methods in Year 12 by a considerable margin.

How do we know this ? Because of the recently announced changes by VTAC to the scaling of  Specialist Mathematics. Prior to this year, only Year 12 Methods Students were used for cohort strength comparison purposes. This year they included those Year 12 Students who had completed Methods 3/4 in Year 11. As a result the Specialist Maths cohort became considerably stronger necessitating a review of the Specialist scaling.

Long story short. All the strong Maths students do Methods in Year 11. They also, on average, outperform their Year 12 counterparts. Why? Because they were able to dedicate one year to acquiring the necessary expertise in Methods without being distracted by the demands of other VCE 3/4 subjects. Because the longer and harder you practice Methods, the better you become at it. This is a self-evident fact.


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[max payne]

Conversely, one could argue that it wouldn't be the best decision to take up Methods in year 11 using these reasons:

You are entitled to your opinion, but unfortunately your opinion defies common experience.

Many schools operate a Maths streaming process which starts as early as Year 7.
One of the unstated aims of streaming is to identify those students who are capable of undertaking Methods 1/2 in Year 10 and 3/4 in Year 11.
They would not do this without a reason, and the reason is that it offers the best chance for doing the amount of work necessary to MASTER Mathematical Methods. Dedicating your undivided attention for one whole year to Methods is a huge advantage.

Bottom line is, that most good Maths students do Methods in Year 11. Not only that, but those students outperform the students who do Methods in Year 12 by a considerable margin.

How do we know this ? Because of the recently announced changes by VTAC to the scaling of  Specialist Mathematics. Prior to this year, only Year 12 Methods Students were used for cohort strength comparison purposes. This year they included those Year 12 Students who had completed Methods 3/4 in Year 11. As a result the Specialist Maths cohort became considerably stronger necessitating a review of the Specialist scaling.

Long story short. All the strong Maths students do Methods in Year 11. They also, on average, outperform their Year 12 counterparts. Why? Because they were able to dedicate one year to acquiring the necessary expertise in Methods without being distracted by the demands of other VCE 3/4 subjects. Because the longer and harder you practice Methods, the better you become at it. This is a self-evident fact.


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just about sums everything up. and i think that anyone who would try to argue against this is either regretting the fact that they did not do methods in year 11 and trying to assure themselves that it was the right decision OR did do methods in year 11 but did not achieve their desired result...

[jaydee]

i can see it from both points of view. people that start methods in year 10 compared to those doing normal year 10 maths (me) did geta  jump start in terms of finishing it without the pressure of other year 12 subjects. Year 10 curriculum is useless if you're good enough to do MM in year 10 anyway! If I could've done methods in year 10 I would have but the school wouldn't let anyone but this shouldn't deter anyone who is keen to do it in their own time. I finished the methods 1&2 course in year 10 by self study at home and this year in year 11 I finished the year 12 course by myself so essentially I'll end up doing it twice. The more you do the btter you'll be. If you understand the concept and you do plenty of practise it will be a piece of cake (hopefully methods will be for me in 2012 )

[samad]

no matter when you do methods, there will always be some inevitable difficulties and some benefits

in year 10/11: pros: can give it your undivided attention, no pressure from other subjects, solid basis for those considering Spec in yr 12, improves your quant skills and logical reasoning for other science subjects and tests like UMAT. cons: the concepts may be difficult to grasp, and you might be unfamiliar with the VCE 'system' and the extreme level of competition there is (i did bio 3/4 in yr 11, didn't realise that VCE is really competitive until about half way through, but the situation is tenfold in a subject like methods where every mark counts)

in year 12: pros: you are likely to be more familiar with how to study effectively, greater chance of grasping the intricacies since the ability of your mind to understand difficult concepts naturally develops as you grow older, and if your are taking SM concurrently, spec knowledge sometimes surprisingly makes Methods far easier (eg. 2011 exam 2 had questions (eg. proportianlity constants and 'differential equations') that were much easier to tackle if you had done spec.). cons: time constraints may not allow you to hone skills sufficiently to avoid mistakes.

ultimately the pros and cons are something for you to weigh up before deciding. you can always take other 'easier' 3/4s in year 11 and take Methods in yr 12 if you have another certain subject that you think you want to get under your belt b4 going into yr 12 (eg. recommend bio if doing chem because of content overlap)