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April 29, 2025, 06:56:51 pm

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« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 12:02:16 pm by Yellow_ »

Panicmode

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Re: Utilitarianism
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2011, 10:09:16 pm »
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We were taught a variety of ethical theories in school, utilitarianism being among them. Although sacrificing the baby does appear to be the most logical choice, the funny thing about ethics is they don't have to be logical.

For me, the choice would depend on my degree of knowledge and/or involvement in the production of the cure. If I had no knowledge that the child would die as a result of me finding the cure then sure, I'd be able to go ahead with it. However, I don't think I could personally bring myself to kill someone, innocent or not, deliberately.

You can argue the whole, "Well, you're killing all those people who don't get the cure", but you'd be wrong. I am not killing them, the disease is. In not finding the cure, I am not killing them anymore than I am those starving children in Africa to whom I am unable to donate food.

You can argue I am being naive/rash/unfair/unrealistic. Perhaps, but to deliberately and forcefully murder someone is something I could not possibly do. It's the same reason I'm in staunch opposition to capital punishment.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 10:18:39 pm by Panicmode »
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Water

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Re: Utilitarianism
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2011, 10:56:25 pm »
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We were taught a variety of ethical theories in school, utilitarianism being among them. Although sacrificing the baby does appear to be the most logical choice, the funny thing about ethics is they don't have to be logical.

Morality shouldn't be governed by logic. Morality should be seen by what is consciously most correct to ourselves and for others. Otherwise our life would be rendered futile and mundane like robots and computer. Too bad for us, we've been bestowed upon us the ability to emotionally consider actions and consequences.

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For me, the choice would depend on my degree of knowledge and/or involvement in the production of the cure. If I had no knowledge that the child would die as a result of me finding the cure then sure, I'd be able to go ahead with it. However, I don't think I could personally bring myself to kill someone, innocent or not, deliberately.

The question specifically asks "You have the power," the cure is thrust upon your hands but at a large consequence in the lost of a life. Your inaction would consequently lead to the deaths of many people. The situation vests upon you to a responsibility, whether you take it or not is the question.

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You can argue I am being naive/rash/unfair/unrealistic. Perhaps, but to deliberately and forcefully murder someone is something I could not possibly do. It's the same reason I'm in staunch opposition to capital punishment.
 

Why can't a child's life be sacrificed. In scientific experiments, lab rats are used, and I'm sure there are many other animals that  are tested against their will? Are they seen as less valuable than intelligent life forms like human beings, of course not. And yet, we persist in abusing them. Narrowing in the example of the Rat, they are also intelligent creatures that feel pain, emotion and impending death. Why is the lost in the life of a rat any different to the lost of a human being. But instead, if we kill a child for the pursuit of a greater cause? Then so be it. We already do it already with animals, who we deem as inferior. Inadvertantly, we have already committed the crime. We subconsciously already allow such acts, willing ourselves to become ignorant in pursuit for science/medicine.



 
About Philosophy

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Panicmode

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Re: Utilitarianism
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2011, 11:08:23 pm »
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Morality shouldn't be governed by logic. Morality should be seen by what is consciously most correct to ourselves and for others. Otherwise our life would be rendered futile and mundane like robots and computer. Too bad for us, we've been bestowed upon us the ability to emotionally consider actions and consequences.


This is exactly what I'm arguing. I'm saying that although the utilitarian approach is the most logical, it is not one that fully considers the emotional consequences of such an action.


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The question specifically asks "You have the power," the cure is thrust upon your hands but at a large consequence in the lost of a life. Your inaction would consequently lead to the deaths of many people. The situation vests upon you to a responsibility, whether you take it or not is the question.


Just because one has the power does not mean they have the obligation to exercise it. Using my prior example, you have the power to go to Africa and volunteer your time/money to help impoverished communities. Are the lives of those dying because you chose not to go your responsibility? Hardly.


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Why can't a child's life be sacrificed. In scientific experiments, lab rats are used, and I'm sure there are many other animals that  are tested against their will? Are they seen as less valuable than intelligent life forms like human beings, of course not. And yet, we persist in abusing them. Narrowing in the example of the Rat, they are also intelligent creatures that feel pain, emotion and impending death. Why is the lost in the life of a rat any different to the lost of a human being. But instead, if we kill a child for the pursuit of a greater cause? Then so be it. We already do it already with animals, who we deem as inferior. Inadvertantly, we have already committed the crime. We subconsciously already allow such acts, willing ourselves to become ignorant in pursuit for science/medicine.

And here's where we disagree. I do not place the life of an animal (non-human) on the same level as that of a human. The crux of the argument you are making here seems to be that animals are sacrificed therefore humans should be to. By the same token then, we eat animals, should we not eat humans? The value of the life of a rat is much less than that of a human in my opinion. Yes, we should make every effort to ensure that the way we treat animals is ethical, but no, we should not apply the same ethical code to both humans and animals (non-humans).
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Re: Utilitarianism
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2011, 11:42:53 pm »
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This is exactly what I'm arguing. I'm saying that although the utilitarian approach is the most logical, it is not one that fully considers the emotional consequences of such an action.

We're on the same page here.


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Just because one has the power does not mean they have the obligation to exercise it. Using my prior example, you have the power to go to Africa and volunteer your time/money to help impoverished communities. Are the lives of those dying because you chose not to go your responsibility? Hardly.

"You have the power to cure the most horrible diseases in all the world but at the cost of killing a single innocent child. What would you do? (This was on a friend's final.)" The scale of importance makes going to Africa to help impoverished communities completely irrelevant. This is saving humanity by the hundreds of millions. You are the only person who in the entire world who has this sort of power, it seriously puts forth the significance of this responsibility. The value in the circumstances of the "cure" and the "African community cannot be compared. They are in totally different universes. Even then, for any "normal" human being, the guilt will ride you forever, for not undertaking or considering an action to such an enormity as this. As I have said before, taking action or not action, is a subset of responsibility. But to be completely disregarding is a large concern. Yes, granted, you can dismiss, not consider upon this issue, and have no obligation, but is this truly the pursuit you want to take? Cowardice I say.


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And here's where we disagree. I do not place the life of an animal (non-human) on the same level as that of a human. The crux of the argument you are making here seems to be that animals are sacrificed therefore humans should be to. By the same token then, we eat animals, should we not eat humans? The value of the life of a rat is much less than that of a human in my opinion. Yes, we should make every effort to ensure that the way we treat animals is ethical, but no, we should not apply the same ethical code to both humans and animals (non-humans).

Let me dissect this for you.


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I do not place the life of an animal (non-human) on the same level as that of a human.

I agree, and this is the reason why we are omnivores. We eat animals, we abuse animals and we treats animals as lesser species. This is sadly the state of our world - in a majority sense.


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The crux of the argument you are making here seems to be that animals are sacrificed therefore humans should be to

Here, the question poses "One human" as it has stated  "cost of killing a single innocent child." Now, lets put the assumption that it only takes "one child" to find the cure, and remove all the ambiguities that science fruitfully creates or discovers. To sacrifice a single child for a greater cause that will lead on to a benefit that lasts for eternity, the trade off is in one way or another, understandable.

If we consider the value in the life of a rat much less than that of a human, then how many rats does it take to equal the life of a human then? There must be a figure value for life, no? But this is not the main concern I am trying to tackle here. The concern here is that, either way you look at it, we already sacrifice "life" for medical science. And in this case, it is a large breakthrough that can lead the human species to greater heights in terms of longevity and other benefits that such cures can manifest. One life for science's advancement - what a bargain! We already do it with so many other animals already. Come On! Take a kid in the middle of China or India. Make sure no one knows about it, cover it up with no media, everything will be perfectly fine like we do with all the experimentally tested animals.


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Yes, we should make every effort to ensure that the way we treat animals is ethical, but no, we should not apply the same ethical code to both humans and animals (non-humans).

I am not saying that animals and humans should co-exist with one another in a utopia, but I am saying that if animals can feel pain, physically and emotionally as us, a child in many respects is similar to animals (non-humans). Therefore, in many ways, there is parallels that can be seen. If many animals are sacrificed for science, surely a child, merely nothing in a world of a few billion people can be sacrificed for the pursuit of science - one child like speck of rice.

As I have said before, we have inadvertently committed the crime, of sacrificing life for science. Sacrificing one more, in this case, a human being, for the benefit of society is something to seriously consider as a most likely alternative.






« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 04:56:35 pm by Water »
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Re: Utilitarianism
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2011, 12:24:19 pm »
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as long as I could choose the child's mode of death, yes I would
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Re: Utilitarianism
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2011, 06:31:00 pm »
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i direct you guys to a rather old thread, but more specifically the link in the OP of that thread; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBdfcR-8hEY, it's an extremely interesting set of Harvard Lectures full of discussing various moral scenarios built around the idea of justice, well worth a watch if you're interested and have some time on your hands

i would get involved into this discussion, but frankly after a week and a half of solid debating/adjudicating debates in two countries i'm kinda over arguing :P
« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 06:37:07 pm by tram »

Panicmode

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Re: Utilitarianism
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2011, 07:47:31 pm »
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"You have the power to cure the most horrible diseases in all the world but at the cost of killing a single innocent child. What would you do? (This was on a friend's final.)" The scale of importance makes going to Africa to help impoverished communities completely irrelevant. This is saving humanity by the hundreds of millions. You are the only person who in the entire world who has this sort of power, it seriously puts forth the significance of this responsibility. The value in the circumstances of the "cure" and the "African community cannot be compared. They are in totally different universes. Even then, for any "normal" human being, the guilt will ride you forever, for not undertaking or considering an action to such an enormity as this. As I have said before, taking action or not action, is a subset of responsibility. But to be completely disregarding is a large concern. Yes, granted, you can dismiss, not consider upon this issue, and have no obligation, but is this truly the pursuit you want to take? Cowardice I say.

Are you aware how many people actually die of starvation each year? Approximately 6 million children (not people) die each year of starvation. You're also acting as if finding the cure equates to people receiving the cure. This is not the case and should be stressed. Just because I find a cure/prevention doesn't mean that those who need it will have access to it. Take malaria for example. We have had vaccinations/cures for malaria for many years and yet it is still one of the leading causes of death. Yes, I understand that the guilt would probably haunt me for the rest of my life, but that doesn't mean that I should let that rule my decision. I am not dismissing the choice I have, merely saying that it is not my obligation to kill this child. Just like you are not obligated to help starving children in Africa. This was where my analogy came in. 

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stuff on animals
(can't be bothered copying and pasting)

And here once again is where we disagree. To me it wouldn't matter how many animals you sacrificed, it would never equal a human life. You could kill 1 billion, even 1 trillion of any animal, wipe it into extinction, and its life would not equate to that of a human. I simply cannot place the sacrifice of animal (non-human) life no matter to what scale, on the same level as the sacrifice of a human life.
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Re: Utilitarianism
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2011, 08:12:16 pm »
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Skimmed through (Cant be stuffed reading through everyones posts sorry!), and i think we're missing the point here:
You have the power to cure the most horrible diseases in all the world but at the cost of killing a single innocent child. What would you do?

Wouldn't you just kill the child (who is innocent of course), who is suffering from the disease and is on the brink of death anyways? -Assuming you have the choice of which child you kill!


If you can't assume.. then heres my opinion:

It'd merely be martyrdom. Newspaper headings would read: "The innocent child who was killed for the sake of many more to come, and possibly for the survival of mankind" . It's like war. think of ww1 and ww2.. did soldiers get killed for a reason? Most of the time - yes. were they innocent ? -Yes! they were compelled to sign up. They sacrificed their life for something, and that something is what makes our civilisation as it is today. Back to the child - this child can be sacrificed for something as well. Something that will not only make things a lot different (prevent future disease, downfall of humanity..etc) , but will in turn create happiness for those suffering from disease all over the world. I'm not gonna drag on, cause I'm hoping you catch my drift now!

Think in the parents perspective however, and things get a bit more emotional.  Your only child, who hasn't done anything wrong in their life holds the key to perhaps .. humanity. Would you let them be killed for the cure ? Now, considering the parents and child have an immensely strong relationship.. things get even more emotional. What to do..?
1) Prepare them for a clone.  8)
OR
2) Accept the offer - since inevitably, its for the better.. for you, and for your future family.
OR
3) Decline the offer, since you love your child too much. (but ahh.. just saying, wouldnt some maniac set out to murder the kid if you did say no?  :o )

the end..
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Re: Utilitarianism
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2011, 08:51:33 pm »
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humans are animals.

Essentially yes, but we are the only species capable of perceiving and holding awareness of our consciousness, which makes us separate from the rest of the animal kingdom.
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Re: Utilitarianism
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2011, 09:04:43 pm »
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humans are animals.

Essentially yes, but we are the only species capable of perceiving and holding awareness of our consciousness, which makes us separate from the rest of the animal kingdom.

What about extremely mentally disabled people?  Do we relegate them to 'animal' status too then?
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Re: Utilitarianism
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2011, 09:17:43 pm »
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What about extremely mentally disabled people?  Do we relegate them to 'animal' status too then?

Well not according to the UN. I guess it's difficult to really distinguish between different levels of animal if you do it purely on mental ability, because you have a pretty big sliding scale. Those that are mentally disabled are afforded the same level of "humanity" because we draw a ideological delineation (yay big words) rather than a practical one. So yeah, it's arbitrary but we afford ourselves rights because we define ourselves as the higher creatures. The fact that we can do that, is probably most of the reason.

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Re: Utilitarianism
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2011, 09:20:39 pm »
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What about extremely mentally disabled people?  Do we relegate them to 'animal' status too then?

Well not according to the UN. I guess it's difficult to really distinguish between different levels of animal if you do it purely on mental ability, because you have a pretty big sliding scale. Those that are mentally disabled are afforded the same level of "humanity" because we draw a ideological delineation (yay big words) rather than a practical one. So yeah, it's arbitrary but we afford ourselves rights because we define ourselves as the higher creatures. The fact that we can do that, is probably most of the reason.

So we define ourselves as the higher creatures, therefore we are higher creatures?  But surely definition and ideological delineation is subject to context - hypothetically, in a different world, black people are considered a lower class, and the death of a black person is probably equivalent to the death of a dog.  Or a Jewish person for that matter.  Is that ok?
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Re: Utilitarianism
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2011, 09:21:11 pm »
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What if the child was Hitler? BAM
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Re: Utilitarianism
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2011, 09:22:43 pm »
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What if the child was Hitler? BAM

I am Hitler reincarnated /offtopic
About Philosophy

When I see a youth thus engaged,—the study appears to me to be in character, and becoming a man of liberal education, and him who neglects philosophy I regard as an inferior man, who will never aspire to anything great or noble. But if I see him continuing the study in later life, and not leaving off, I should like to beat him - Callicle