School Rankings

[iamtom]

Wait, are we arguing that Private School kidz are better than MHS/Mac.Rob kidz or are we arguing if it is worth attending MHS/Mac.Rob for the "3-4 median ATAR boost" (which made me laugh)?

[Jdog]

Wait, are we arguing that Private School kidz are better than MHS/Mac.Rob kidz or are we arguing if it is worth attending MHS/Mac.Rob for the "3-4 median ATAR boost" (which made me laugh)?

we are arguing, whether or not private schools (top ones) are better than macrob/melbhigh,. ON that topic we are talking about how much of a differnce there really is in terms of academics. , I think that the difference in academic results is not really much of an advantage.

[Special At Specialist]

How do you know what the median atar in your school is?
If my school has a median study score of 31, what would you expect our median atar to be?

[Bismuth]

I have a friend who attended a private school since prep, and gained a scholarship in year 5 at this school. He sat the MHS entrance exam in year 8 and he got in. He actually picked MHS; reimbursed the school for all the years he had his scholarship and went to MHS for three weeks. He came back after three weeks complaining about the lack of diversity and was at least $30,000 shorter, and decided to continue his education at this private school with full fees. He's not affluent, either. They're a working class family that make sacrifices to give their children the best opportunities possible, with a couple of cousins who have also went to MHS.

On the other hand, my girlfriend followed very much the same pattern but enjoys her education at Mac Rob and thinks it was a better choice to change. Essentially, the point I'm making is that it is all dependent on the student. If you enjoyed your time at school and got into the course you wanted or you're on the way to this goal -- who cares?

[Tobias Funke]

Very true, Bismuth, sometimes Melbourne High just isn't for you, and fair enough too.

I know a guy who managed to get in mid year for year 11 last year merely by calling the school (yep, give it a go maybe, worked for him) and thought he'd give it a go because it gave him the opportunity to do subjects that he couldn't do at his other school. Needless to say within a week he dropped those subjects and his old school had Food Tech, so he left and I had two lockers for the rest of the year.

Gotta love Food Tech

[pi]

You are grossly mistaken if you think private schools kids are all rich. In fact id say 90% of tthe stuendets have parents busting their gut to send their kids to private schools.

I doubt this is true (we are talking the "elite private school"), but even if it is, they are still richer than the average household, which would never be able to afford fees of 15k+/year for up to 13 years per child!

But my point isn't about whether or not the average elite private student is richer than the average selective school student, because that's pretty obvious imo, and that's not related to this debate at all.

And no I don't think that 3-4 difference in median atar is huge.

Here is where I think you are "grossly mistaken".

Here's one simple example of where a few extra ATAR points matter:

Well, the 3 - 4 percent difference in median ATAR is actually huge, depending where you want to go.

On Monash Clayton, getting a 90 - 91 instead of 94 - 95 means you miss the chance to do most double degrees
(except probably law double degree).

On Melbourne, 90 - 91 compared to 94 - 95 means you miss out on commerce, which is rather inconvenient if you live near to Melbourne and you don't get in, so it can mean a lot.

Otherwise, you didn't address this part of my post:

On your second point, the difference between a 90/1 median and a 94/5/6 median is huge and a lot of kids would take that extra academic acheivement over 6 tennis courts, 5 ovals and whatnot tbh.

Would you deny this? I know the ATAR is not the be-all-and-end-all of a future career, but is helps a crap-load. Far more than being in the school cricket fourth XI or attempting to play golf on weekends...

Just think, would you rather be the middle student at Scotch/MGS or the middle student at MHS/Mac.Rob?

Very true, Bismuth, sometimes Melbourne High just isn't for you, and fair enough too.

I can't deny this, because it is definitely true. The same could be said for any school though.

[TheMirrorMan]

I have a friend who attended a private school since prep, and gained a scholarship in year 5 at this school. He sat the MHS entrance exam in year 8 and he got in. He actually picked MHS; reimbursed the school for all the years he had his scholarship and went to MHS for three weeks. He came back after three weeks complaining about the lack of diversity and was at least $30,000 shorter, and decided to continue his education at this private school with full fees. He's not affluent, either. They're a working class family that make sacrifices to give their children the best opportunities possible, with a couple of cousins who have also went to MHS.

I'd have to disagree, I think MHS is a highly diverse school with students from many socio-economic and cultural backgrounds. Saying that MHS isn't going to suit everyone, a guy in my class left after the 1st week.  But the fact that 99% of students stay must say something good about the school.

[Jdog]

On your second point, the difference between a 90/1 median and a 94/5/6 median is huge and a lot of kids would take that extra academic acheivement over 6 tennis courts, 5 ovals and whatnot tbh.



@argonaut, having never been to an elite private school, thats a difficult question. But I doubt I would have done better at MGS or Scotch.

The facilities you've said add to the rounded nature of the school, but Im more talking about the community aspect of the school, the opportunities it affords you. The opportunities in particular allow you do maanny more things that you might not have in MHS/Macrob.

The networks you build at these schools set you up for a long time.

ALso, its not that you wuold do better in your atar at these schools, it is that you would have an education that is not just focused on academics, instead you would have recieved one that touches on many more bases.

If you haven't experienced a private school, then I find it hard for you to argue against the advantages/diasvantages.

Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience

[iamtom]

I've experienced Private school, a "regular" public school, and MHS for 4 years.

This is what is wrong with what you are saying. I will break down your last post.

The facilities you've said add to the rounded nature of the school, but Im more talking about the community aspect of the school, the opportunities it affords you. The opportunities in particular allow you do maanny more things that you might not have in MHS/Macrob.

The MHS community is a huge aspect of the school. Our school regularly requires us to get involved with each other, both internally and externally to the school. Swimming, Cross Country, Rowing Fraternity, video games, studying @ state, sports (from fencing to chess to AFL)... community is huge at school. Regular meets at Millgrove camp to "fix up" the camp happen, bees around the school to plant and maintain the grounds.
I would argue the opportunities are larger at MHS/Mac.Rob, but I'll talk about MHS on its own; ever heard of the MHSOBA? No?

Right.

This organisation we join as graduates to the school (Old Boys), has thousands of members in any field - law, medicine, science, IT, business. Members date back to pre-50s, even. It's a huge organisation, providing a sense of community even after you graduate Melbourne High School. Job opportunities, internships, workshops, meetings, the MHS Masonic Lodge, clubs, golf... how does these not provide a community aspect to the school, or opportunities?

The networks you build at these schools set you up for a long time

Same with Melbourne High School. I'd say more, but I know Xavier and Scotch are pretty old too.

ALso, its not that you wuold do better in your atar at these schools, it is that you would have an education that is not just focused on academics, instead you would have recieved one that touches on many more bases.

What do you think Melbourne High does? Make us study 14 hours a day? No. The entire 4 years of my time at MHS, our principal gave hundreds of speeches. At least every time, he would mention how Melbourne high is improving and aiming to provide its students opportunities not focused at just a great education, but life experience, a well-rounded experience that you can take with you into tertiary studies and into life. I learned more about life and people at Melbourne High school than I did about English, Maths, Science... easily. Granted, the majority of your time at MHS will be focused on study, but your spare time at MHS will be utilised getting to know your fellow student, yourself and your life joys.

If you haven't experienced a private school, then I find it hard for you to argue against the advantages/diasvantages.

Challenge accepted.

[fuzzylogic]

You are grossly mistaken if you think private schools kids are all rich. In fact id say 90% of tthe stuendets have parents busting their gut to send their kids to private schools.

I doubt this is true (we are talking the "elite private school"), but even if it is, they are still richer than the average household, which would never be able to afford fees of 15k+/year for up to 13 years per child!

But my point isn't about whether or not the average elite private student is richer than the average selective school student, because that's pretty obvious imo, and that's not related to this debate at all.

And no I don't think that 3-4 difference in median atar is huge.

Here is where I think you are "grossly mistaken".

Here's one simple example of where a few extra ATAR points matter:

Well, the 3 - 4 percent difference in median ATAR is actually huge, depending where you want to go.

On Monash Clayton, getting a 90 - 91 instead of 94 - 95 means you miss the chance to do most double degrees
(except probably law double degree).

On Melbourne, 90 - 91 compared to 94 - 95 means you miss out on commerce, which is rather inconvenient if you live near to Melbourne and you don't get in, so it can mean a lot.

Otherwise, you didn't address this part of my post:

On your second point, the difference between a 90/1 median and a 94/5/6 median is huge and a lot of kids would take that extra academic acheivement over 6 tennis courts, 5 ovals and whatnot tbh.

Would you deny this? I know the ATAR is not the be-all-and-end-all of a future career, but is helps a crap-load. Far more than being in the school cricket fourth XI or attempting to play golf on weekends...

Just think, would you rather be the middle student at Scotch/MGS or the middle student at MHS/Mac.Rob?

I think the critical point being missed here is that simply attending MHS/Macrob doesn't mean you're going to get that  extra 3-4 points added onto your ATAR.  You still have to work hard just as hard as you would at a private school.  Whereas the middle student at selective schools would most likely get a higher ATAR than the middle student at a private school, there are sometimes selective school students who might get a lower score than their counterpart at private school...and in the same vein, often at the top end of the spectrum, private school students do better than their selective school counterparts.  In the end, I think it comes down to the students themselves.

Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience

[fuzzylogic]

You are grossly mistaken if you think private schools kids are all rich. In fact id say 90% of tthe stuendets have parents busting their gut to send their kids to private schools.

I doubt this is true (we are talking the "elite private school"), but even if it is, they are still richer than the average household, which would never be able to afford fees of 15k+/year for up to 13 years per child!

I know this is off topic, but...having been to one elite private school...a good proportion of students were from families who sacrificed a LOT to pay for their children's education, and quite a few on particular bursaries and scholarships without which they wouldn't have been able to afford it.

Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience

[taiga]

Why are we forgetting the facilities Melbourne High School has. We have on campus tennis courts, a hockey court, nets, basketball court (x2 including indoor), on campus oval, gym, swimming pool, arts centre, dozens of computer rooms + the school uses it's reputation to get their student's access to MSAC, three other ovals, Albert Park, the lawn bowls place used for the Comm Games, and even bloody Strike on Chapel Bowling.

MHS Networking is brilliant, you have three reunions within the first 5 years of leaving school, careers nights available for uni students to go to two years after the school, I got a job which lets me work from home for double what most earn in retail after talking to an MHS old boy, and we constantly get messages and emails about opportunities to continually network with alumni of the school. The alumni we have definitely is not unimpressive by any means either.

Now you tell me, how much better are private schools to pay the 20K more per annum? Sure, I'd probably like private school, but if I ended up going to uni knowing I'm in the same position as public school students, I would have to slightly question why I paid so much for my education.

[JellyDonut]

The entire 4 years of my time at MHS, our principal gave hundreds of speeches

And I slept through every one of them.

[ulbasour]

Just quietly if you got a scholarship to an elite aps school (i.e. mgs, scotch, skc, xavier) and got an offer to melbourne high, where would you go? (considering the fact that with a scholarship you would be paying 2 -3 thousand more per year than mhs)

If you get into an elite aps school, they can transform an average student into a 99 +. The reputation of mhs/macrob is more or less built on the students itself - they bottom end of their respective cohorts is signinficantly higher than any private school and so they should be as they are SELECTIVE. In terms of school atmosphere, you have got to be joking that mhs outclasses the spirit shared by private school kids for their school. Yeah, there are students who get involved in mhs events and sports etc but that is a relative minority compared to what you'd find at aforementioned private schools. You'd never find 2000+ kids to watch mathes of footy and rugby at mhs would you?

You talk about facilities: MHS does have some good facilities, but still doesn't compare to the elite private schools.
On the matter of old boys: yeah mhs produce a fair amount of succesful doctors, lawers, bankers etc. - but that won't help any student develop job connections if those successful students don't share a profound love for their alma mater. Private school kids do share a greater connection and pride than mhs kids (comparatively )towards their school, which enables future students to benefit through endorsements and job opportunities given back to school students/school leavers.
Another advantage of private schools is derived from the argument that they are for the "rich and filthy rich". Yeah, their is a student population that do fit this criteria. But they are a minority. Majority of kids parents have to work hard to send 2-3 kids to private schools. But nevertheless, the advantage further exists with networking opportunities amongst rich kids. Having mates whose parents are ceo's, firm owners etc. allows for an expansion of connections which further provides a leg up on other students.
Private schools do have significant benefits, because an education is not what you learn but what you experience- and it is that experience which you get from a private school, which superceeds mhs, imo. This is just an opinion.

[taiga]

You've made a lot of assumptions there. Do you honestly think there are no CEO's, Firm Owners, or people high in Industry from MHS?  There are, and through the Old Boy Association, which is very strong, you can do all the things that you listed. You've just assumed we have none of that.

Facilities that 'don't compare', what do you mean? Do you have magic grass on your ovals? Is your swimming pool filled with mineral water from the Himalayas?

To answer your scholarship question, I'd put it this way. If my son or daughter received a scholarship to one of those schools and an offer from one of the top selective schools, my decision will always be with the latter.

I respect that it's your opinion, but you've made assumptions on what MHS does not have.