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May 06, 2025, 07:09:53 pm

Author Topic: Mr. Study's 3 and 4 Question.  (Read 18787 times)  Share 

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Lasercookie

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Re: Mr. Study's 3 and 4 Question.
« Reply #75 on: May 01, 2012, 04:48:32 pm »
+3
Going to use these abbreviations:
GPE = Gravitational Potential Energy
KE = Kinetic Energy
EPE = Elastic Potential Energy

You pretty much have the right idea. It's best to look at the entire motion here as a series of stages though. It most cases in questions, we are looking at very specific points e.g. energy before and energy after, which is why we can come to conclusions such as Initial GPE = Final KE (as all the energy has been transferred completely).
 
For scenario 1, at the very top of the jump, you have GPE is at it's maximum and no KE. At the end of the jump, KE is at it's maximum and there GPE is at it's minimum. At these two points we can say Initial GPE = Final KE.

However, during the fall, you have a transfer of GPE to KE. As you pointed out, this doesn't happen instantaneously. The GPE decreases while the KE increases. You can assume this happens linearly and that they increase and decrease in proportion. And since energy is conserved in closed systems, at any point of this fall you can say that Initial Energy = GPE + KE (and the values for GPE and KE are constantly changing).

For scenario two, it's basically the same. However the transfer of energy here is GPE to KE to EPE (and then the reverse on the way up). So again at the start, GPE = maximum, KE and EPE are 0.

Again during the motion, the values of GPE and KE increasing and decreasing in proportion. Elastic potential energy would be zero during that, since that energy is only transferred when the cord begins to stretch (which happens at the bottom usually). Once kinetic energy begins to be transferred to elastic potential, than that also begins increasing and decreasing in proportion too.

At the very bottom of the jump, GPE = minimum and KE = 0 (it's been transferred completely to EPE), and EPE = maximum.

Of course, these are really just the ideal situations, so you'd have other factors introduced (other forces preventing the GPE and KE being from transferred linearly throughout the entire motion, and particularly with the bungee cord - it's elasticity, when it brings to stretch out etc.)

edit: I was trying to find a visual example where it would have graphs accompanying an object falling etc., couldn't find a good one but found this video and thought it was pretty funny: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7K4V0NvUxRg
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 04:52:06 pm by laseredd »

DisaFear

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Re: Mr. Study's 3 and 4 Question.
« Reply #76 on: May 01, 2012, 05:19:49 pm »
+2
Yes, laseredd is absolutely correct.

Wouldn't intial energy = potential energy + kinetic?

Initial energy is Potential energy + Kinetic, yes. But in this case, the guy has no motion at the top of the building. Therefore, he has no kinetic energy.



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Mr. Study

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Re: Mr. Study's 3 and 4 Question.
« Reply #77 on: May 01, 2012, 05:25:58 pm »
0
Thank you so much for that!

I can't convey how much I appreciate the help! :)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 05:30:53 pm by Mr. Study »
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Mr. Study

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Re: Mr. Study's 3 and 4 Question.
« Reply #78 on: May 02, 2012, 06:24:39 pm »
0
Hey again,

For the VCAA 2010 Physics Exam, Question 6, I am having trouble trying to derive the formula.

So far I have this:

Total force



I know I can get the answer if I were to let Fn=0 but I would like to know why or how I should be deriving the 'formula'.

Thank you very much

EDIT: Sorry! Forgot to add the image up!
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 08:34:43 pm by Mr. Study »
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DisaFear

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Re: Mr. Study's 3 and 4 Question.
« Reply #79 on: May 03, 2012, 01:33:57 pm »
+1
Some nice working from Wikipedia, does this help?



Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banked_turn#Frictionless_banked_turn

Gives the correct answer (even though you weren't looking for that)



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Mr. Study

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Re: Mr. Study's 3 and 4 Question.
« Reply #80 on: May 03, 2012, 03:13:51 pm »
0
Hey! Thank you for that!

It does help immensely!

:)

EDIT: Ahhh it all makes so much sense now! Thanks again!
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 04:35:08 pm by Mr. Study »
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Mr. Study

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Re: Mr. Study's 3 and 4 Question.
« Reply #81 on: May 07, 2012, 03:50:14 pm »
0
Hey guys,

Any chance if anyone knows how different the VCAA Physics Exams from 2000-2008 are? I did pretty good in motion for the 2006 paper but some bits in electronics/photonics seemed like questions that I have not seen before and wasn't too sure if it is another of showing something. (IF that makes sense :S)

Thanks!
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Lasercookie

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Re: Mr. Study's 3 and 4 Question.
« Reply #82 on: May 07, 2012, 04:07:05 pm »
+1
Hey guys,

Any chance if anyone knows how different the VCAA Physics Exams from 2000-2008 are? I did pretty good in motion for the 2006 paper but some bits in electronics/photonics seemed like questions that I have not seen before and wasn't too sure if it is another of showing something. (IF that makes sense :S)

Thanks!
This is a document that lists dot point by dot point the exact changes made from the previous study design to current study design: http://www.vicphysics.org/documents/teachers/Study%20Design%20Final%20Changes.doc

There's a few differences (especially for electronics and photonics). If you feel you know the course pretty well, then in general if you don't know how to do a question, it's probably not on the current study design. I think for the earlier stage of the 2005-2008 study design (I think it was that period), where the detailed studies were short answer.

For pre-2004 (other than the pilot exam), the structure and order of the course is quite significant (e.g. motion is in Unit 4, no detailed studies etc.), the emphasis for a few topics are a bit different too. You'll find it hard to do these exams in full, so it's probably best to do it on a question-by-question basis (e.g. 8 minutes for this question here etc.) and then reading the assessor reports.

I do think it's a good idea to take a look at all of the VCAA exams that are on the website, their overall style of the questions haven't changed that much. At the very least, figure out the still relevant to study design questions and read the assessor reports, paying careful attention to the questions that the majority of the state struggled with. 

Edit: In other words, do the questions and don't stress if you come across completely unfamiliar questions. (much of this goes for 2008 and earlier company exams too)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 04:18:56 pm by laseredd »

Mr. Study

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Re: Mr. Study's 3 and 4 Question.
« Reply #83 on: May 07, 2012, 05:18:01 pm »
0
OMG , You-are-a-life-saver! I genuinely mean that! Thank you so so much for your help (so far) this year laserred. :)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 05:24:57 pm by Mr. Study »
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Lasercookie

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Re: Mr. Study's 3 and 4 Question.
« Reply #84 on: May 07, 2012, 05:32:46 pm »
0
OMG , You-are-a-life-saver! I genuinely mean that! Thank you so so much for your help (so far) this year laserred. :)
No problem :)

Mr. Study

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Re: Mr. Study's 3 and 4 Question.
« Reply #85 on: May 10, 2012, 06:17:51 pm »
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From the 2011 Insight Exam. (I added a few bits to the diagram, as a way to show how I was trying to derive the answer)

For the second picture, I figured that at point R, the vertical velocity component would be the same as the inital vertical velocity at the top, right corner of the tower.

Which would be x =.

Then I let ,,,




I didn't use the 1.4s flight time as I thought that since the time encompasses the entire flight time, it would consider the time from the top, right cornver of the tower to point R.

I may be over complicating the entire question >.<.

The solutions have it as ,,

x-xx


The solutions make it seem too easy! Please, Can someone tell me if how I am thinking is overcomplicating the situation?

Thank you so much! :)
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Lasercookie

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Re: Mr. Study's 3 and 4 Question.
« Reply #86 on: May 10, 2012, 07:14:53 pm »
+1
Yes, you are over complicating the question. You don't need to pick out 'point R' when you can get the information through much simpler working out (which is shown in the solutions from Insight).

Picking out Point R is kind of a good idea, I guess, but you've ignored some key information regarding the motion, hence why your answer is incorrect. It so happens that we aren't given enough details to figure out this key information, which means that we can't use this 'point R' method.

Quote
For the second picture, I figured that at point R, the vertical velocity component would be the same as the inital vertical velocity at the top, right corner of the tower.
Not necessarily. You're ignoring the fact that a vertical acceleration will act upon the motorbike for a period of time - a period of time. This will mean the the vertical velocity at point R will be different. You could think of it this way too: the velocity throughout the motion will decrease, the horizontal velocity remains constants, therefore the vertical velocity must be the value that decreases. 

The other thing:
Quote
Then I let ,,,
Why'd you let vertical velocity at this point be 0? We know that the bike is still in motion for a bit yet, so if vertical velocity is 0,  (and hence gravitation force being ignored too) then it'd only have a velocity horizontally. This would mean that the bike would travel horizontally along the air, it wouldn't drop. That clearly doesn't happen.

Another thing is that you made a calculation mistake here:
Quote
Which would be x =.
, not 1/2

(which equals whatever when you round it off to whatever decimal places)

Also I will point out is that if anything, point R would be at the end of travelling distance 'R' - i.e. the end of the motion. (irrelevant though, since you could have used any other letter).


So let's try your point R method, taking into account all information we have.

Looking at vertical information only, so height is given by:

We need to figure out how long it takes to reach point R, knowing that and that

We can't use the vertical values, because the vertical value of 'x' at point R is what we're trying to figure out in the first place.

We can figure the time from the horizontal values:



Oh no, we can't do this, we don't know quantitatively what the horizontal displacement is. Nor are we given enough information about it - we're only told that the bike travels a distance 'R'. So since time and displacement at point R are unknown, we don't have enough information to figure out more details than what we're given using any of the equations of motion.

So another method is needed, let's try what you tried to do:

We have u, we have a, we're trying to figure out x... but what is v? We don't have enough information.

But what if we considered the horizontal values, we know v will remain constant horizontally (as there is no air resistance etc.) and perhaps we can figure out what 'x' is and then figure out the time and other information we need.






So what's the horizontal acceleration? It's 0, isn't it - since there's no forces acting in this direction and that the velocity remains constant (newton's first law). This reason is also why we can pretty much just use this equation for horizontal components:



from which we can also quickly see that we have two unknowns.

So I hope I was able to point out what you did wrong, I'm sure you'll be able to deduce the correct method of working out for this question yourself.

Edit: fixed a few mistakes, misinterpreted something, doesn't affect main point, but see my next post for clarification
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 09:51:04 pm by laseredd »

Mr. Study

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Re: Mr. Study's 3 and 4 Question.
« Reply #87 on: May 10, 2012, 07:40:04 pm »
0
Oh! I see what you mean.  :-[

I should've double checked my post, For the , it should've been . :(

Regarding this point:
Then I let ,,, Why'd you let vertical velocity at this point be 0? We know that the bike is still in motion for a bit yet, so if vertical velocity is 0,  (and hence gravitation force being ignored too) then it'd only have a velocity horizontally. This would mean that the bike would travel horizontally along the air, it wouldn't drop. That clearly doesn't happen.

I am having a little trouble interpreting what you mean. From Point R, I let the initial velocity be 5, but we established thats wrong, however, I let the final velocity be 0 as at the end of motion, vertically, it would be zero.

Is it alright if you elaborated on this point a little further?

Other than that, Very, very helpful post!

Thanks for that laseredd.
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Lasercookie

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Re: Mr. Study's 3 and 4 Question.
« Reply #88 on: May 10, 2012, 09:49:24 pm »
+1
Regarding this point:
Then I let ,,, Why'd you let vertical velocity at this point be 0? We know that the bike is still in motion for a bit yet, so if vertical velocity is 0,  (and hence gravitation force being ignored too) then it'd only have a velocity horizontally. This would mean that the bike would travel horizontally along the air, it wouldn't drop. That clearly doesn't happen.

I am having a little trouble interpreting what you mean. From Point R, I let the initial velocity be 5, but we established thats wrong, however, I let the final velocity be 0 as at the end of motion, vertically, it would be zero.
Oh I see I see, I interpreted what you were doing incorrectly. I only thought about the first half of the motion  (e.g. initial point from tower to Point R) and not from Point R to the ground (silly me). I'll restate a few things from this context.

The point about where we wouldn't have enough information to use that Point R method still stands - as we can't figure out the velocity at point R (which is the initial velocity). The final velocity is the known value (in my misinterpreted case above, the initial velocity - that is the point from the tower, was the known value). I haven't checked it thoroughly, but everything in my post should be fine if you alter and reread things from this perspective. Luckily the core point I was making in the post is still valid.

Mr. Study

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Re: Mr. Study's 3 and 4 Question.
« Reply #89 on: May 27, 2012, 11:19:21 am »
0
How exactly would I find the total voltage? Since the batteries are facing different directions, I have no idea how to find the direction of current.

Also, after we have find out the total voltage, we just basically take 1V off it and then use V/R.

Thank you very much and sorry if this is a 'noob' question but this is the only type of question that I haven't ecountered before.  :'(
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