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Mao

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Re: sig figs
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2012, 02:50:37 am »
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Some further reading if you want to get down to the fundamentals of S.F.

http://digitalcommons.calpoly.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1042&context=rgp_rsr
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yawho

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Re: sig figs
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2012, 08:15:11 am »
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1.0, the second decimal place is unstated, thus it carries an uncertainty of 0.05. That is, if we had 1.04, it would round to 1.0. Thus

Re: operations, you are quite right in that S.F. isn't good for addition/subtraction. I meant mult/division. It can be shown that for mult/div, the propagation of uncertainties works out approximately to be the same as the largest relative uncertainty, so we keep the same significant figures. Key here is that sig.figs is an approximate method of dealing with uncertainties.

Log10 works well with S.F., though not in the conventional way (#decimals in log ~ S.F. of original number). This also works well for log_e, though it is much 'safer' for log10 due to the log10(e) coefficient.

For deriving how the S.F. changes over operations, we use the formula I provided previously, and look at how the relative uncertainties or absolute uncertainties change. S.F. is only one way to handle the implicit uncertainties of numerical values. At higher levels, uncertainties are handled explicitly for obvious reasons.

For sin(x +/- dx), it can be shown that as x->pi/2, the significant figures goes to infinity (indefinitely certain), and as x->0, the significant figures goes to 0 (indefinitely uncertain). This is in the limit of small errors, but the point stands that S.F. cannot be ordinarily applied to transcendental functions.
I have a few questions about your comments, but I have to go now.

Mao

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Re: sig figs
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2012, 02:55:43 pm »
+7
Here is the 'simplified' derivation of S.F.. I'm not sure about your background, but I assume you have relatively strong mathematics which is why you are asking about this. There isn't any point for me to keep discussing this with you, S.F. in my opinion is quite useless once you are outside of high-school (some undergraduate work still use it, but many use better methods).

1. Why S.F. is not a good method.
Suppose we want to deliver a volume of 90 mL with a 10.00 mL pipette. The implicit error of the 10.00mL pipette is mL. Since we need to do this 9 times, the final result should be . The final answer should only be accurate to 3 S.F. given the relative uncertainty of the initial measurement.
However, by the rules of S.F., we have
This is one of the reasons why we don't use S.F. for proper treatment of uncertainties.

2. Derivation of S.F. laws
Suppose we have a quantity , then its significance can be approximated by (this is a rough approximate of what the sf actually does. Doing the following calculations become a lot more messy if we use the proper definition, as the proper definition involves a discontinuous function)

i. Multiplication and division by an exact quantity



ii. Multiplication of two quantities with uncertainties

Ignoring the second order uncertainties, we get

Here, two things can happen. Firstly, , therefore where and , so
Alternatively, , implying , thus , thus , in other words, we take the sf of the quantity with fewer sf.
Thus, we arrive at the final rule

iii. Taking the reciprocal

The significance is


iv. Division of two quantities with uncertainties
Combining ii. and iii., we arrive at

v. Addition and Subtraction

Applying the scale argument, we see that absolute errors are important here, not relative errors. S.F. is not used here.

vi. Logarithms

It can be shown for reasonably sized values of , the digit-significance (i.e. the decimal place) of the absolute error is , since is small for small , we have thus shown that , that is, the significance of the error (i.e. the decimal place) is equal to the number of sf in x.

vii. Exponentials
A similar argument to vi. can be constructed to show that , that is, the decimal place of the initial error is equal to the number of sf in the exponential.

viii. Other transcedentals

For range of values of that are of interest, if , then .
This really depends on what kind of function you have. If , then , which goes to and at certain x values.
On the other hand, the power functions will always behave nicely for reasonable values of n. (Which makes sense in terms of rules ii, iii and iv)



The following are methods I use.

3. Method of relative errors
This is more popular at lower level undergraduate studies.

Suppose we have a bunch of quantities and so on. Define the relative error to be

Rule of addition: Use absolute uncertainties
Rule of multiplication:
Rule of transcendentals:

4. Method of standard deviations
This is the most popular method for treating uncertainties of physical quantities, as everything is almost always normally distributed. Since the normal distribution is a nice function, the rules for propagation is exact. For some non-linear functions, the errors need to be relatively small.

Suppose we have a bunch of quantities with standard deviations and so on.

Rule of addition: Use absolute uncertainties
Rule of multiplication:
Rule of transcendentals: , can be generalised to multivariable functions using partial derivatives and the covariance matrix.



I'm out.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 03:26:29 pm by Mao »
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yawho

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Re: sig figs
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2012, 10:12:09 pm »
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Here is the 'simplified' derivation of S.F.. I'm not sure about your background, but I assume you have relatively strong mathematics which is why you are asking about this. There isn't any point for me to keep discussing this with you, S.F. in my opinion is quite useless once you are outside of high-school (some undergraduate work still use it, but many use better methods).

1. Why S.F. is not a good method.
Suppose we want to deliver a volume of 90 mL with a 10.00 mL pipette. The implicit error of the 10.00mL pipette is mL. Since we need to do this 9 times, the final result should be . The final answer should only be accurate to 3 S.F. given the relative uncertainty of the initial measurement.
However, by the rules of S.F., we have
This is one of the reasons why we don't use S.F. for proper treatment of uncertainties.

2. Derivation of S.F. laws
Suppose we have a quantity , then its significance can be approximated by (this is a rough approximate of what the sf actually does. Doing the following calculations become a lot more messy if we use the proper definition, as the proper definition involves a discontinuous function)

i. Multiplication and division by an exact quantity



ii. Multiplication of two quantities with uncertainties

Ignoring the second order uncertainties, we get

Here, two things can happen. Firstly, , therefore where and , so
Alternatively, , implying , thus , thus , in other words, we take the sf of the quantity with fewer sf.
Thus, we arrive at the final rule

iii. Taking the reciprocal

The significance is


iv. Division of two quantities with uncertainties
Combining ii. and iii., we arrive at

v. Addition and Subtraction

Applying the scale argument, we see that absolute errors are important here, not relative errors. S.F. is not used here.

vi. Logarithms

It can be shown for reasonably sized values of , the digit-significance (i.e. the decimal place) of the absolute error is , since is small for small , we have thus shown that , that is, the significance of the error (i.e. the decimal place) is equal to the number of sf in x.

vii. Exponentials
A similar argument to vi. can be constructed to show that , that is, the decimal place of the initial error is equal to the number of sf in the exponential.

viii. Other transcedentals

For range of values of that are of interest, if , then .
This really depends on what kind of function you have. If , then , which goes to and at certain x values.
On the other hand, the power functions will always behave nicely for reasonable values of n. (Which makes sense in terms of rules ii, iii and iv)



The following are methods I use.

3. Method of relative errors
This is more popular at lower level undergraduate studies.

Suppose we have a bunch of quantities and so on. Define the relative error to be

Rule of addition: Use absolute uncertainties
Rule of multiplication:
Rule of transcendentals:

4. Method of standard deviations
This is the most popular method for treating uncertainties of physical quantities, as everything is almost always normally distributed. Since the normal distribution is a nice function, the rules for propagation is exact. For some non-linear functions, the errors need to be relatively small.

Suppose we have a bunch of quantities with standard deviations and so on.

Rule of addition: Use absolute uncertainties
Rule of multiplication:
Rule of transcendentals: , can be generalised to multivariable functions using partial derivatives and the covariance matrix.



I'm out.


Thanks for your summarised account in calculating uncertainties.
I'll be brief, do not want to waste your valuable time.
'Uncertainties' and 'significant figures' are linked but they are not the same.
Uncertainty of a measurement always coincides with the last digit of a measurement. Inconsistency in counting number of significant figures.
Significant figures are always used in physical sciences, in both study and research.
In Item 1. Significant figure is not a good method 'in doing what'?
The example given is like using a metre ruler to measure a kilometre long distance. Suppose each time you measure 1 m, there is an uncertainty of 1 cm, (1.00 +/- 0.01)m. After using the ruler 1000 times, the uncertainty in the measured distance is 10 m, so (1000 +/- 10) m or (1.00 +/- 0.01) km. So the measurement has 3 sig. figs. The number of significant figures in a measurement depends on the uncertainty in the measurement, you cannot tell it from the measurement.
In rule 2i, cx does not indicate the accuracy (sig. fig.) of the measurement.
 

Mao

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Re: sig figs
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2012, 03:16:04 am »
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'Uncertainties' and 'significant figures' are linked but they are not the same.
Uncertainty of a measurement always coincides with the last digit of a measurement. Inconsistency in counting number of significant figures.
The need for s.f. is born out of a need for a very simple method to keep track of precision, so the output is not more precise than the input. Precision and uncertainties are the same thing in my books, maintaining the same level of precision is the same as maintaining the same level of relative uncertainty.
I agree that uncertainties and s.f. are different things, that's simply because s.f. is not capable at handling uncertainties properly. S.f. is simply just a metric that's somewhat related to uncertainties, but does not allow you to calculate the uncertainties.
This begs the question, why use s.f. in the first place if it cannot handle uncertainties? I don't think s.f. is useful, it is just another metric that doesn't handle uncertainties. I can easily go invent my own metric that doesn't handle uncertainties, and then go about using it to no real purposes. Same deal really.
The only credit I will give is that s.f. is extremely simple to compute for simple cases, it gives a rough indication of what the uncertainties are without any calculation. That is sometimes nice to know.

Significant figures are always used in physical sciences, in both study and research.
Of course. S.f. is a quick and easy way to keep track of precision, I use it all the time as a mental check so I'm more confident about my actual uncertainties calculations. I would only use s.f. if all I need to do is to count digits. If the situation demands me to put effort into keeping track of s.f. via partial derivatives and whatnot, then I might as well put in the effort to use a better method of handling uncertainties rather than sticking with s.f.

Quote
In Item 1. Significant figure is not a good method 'in doing what'?
The example given is like using a metre ruler to measure a kilometre long distance. Suppose each time you measure 1 m, there is an uncertainty of 1 cm, (1.00 +/- 0.01)m. After using the ruler 1000 times, the uncertainty in the measured distance is 10 m, so (1000 +/- 10) m or (1.00 +/- 0.01) km. So the measurement has 3 sig. figs. The number of significant figures in a measurement depends on the uncertainty in the measurement, you cannot tell it from the measurement.
You almost understood what I mean. I was trying to draw the contrast between and
The magnitudes of the two answers are close, yet the uncertainties differ by a whole order of magnitude. The converse is also true, where the two numbers differ by an order of magnitude, but the uncertainties are the same. It's this bias in base 10 which makes it not 'good' for handling uncertainties in physical sciences.
Uncertainties should propagate at least linearly with the magnitude of the quantity (I'm not talking about transcendentals, let's ignore them for now). S.f. does not give this kind of propagation.

Quote
In rule 2i, cx does not indicate the accuracy (sig. fig.) of the measurement.
No idea what you are pointing to there, cx is the magnitude of the product, sf(cx)~sf(x) is the general rule that uncertainties scale linearly with multiplcation, or in the case of s.f., uncertainties jumps by a factor of 10 every now and then.
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yawho

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Re: sig figs
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2012, 07:31:18 am »
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'Uncertainties' and 'significant figures' are linked but they are not the same.
Uncertainty of a measurement always coincides with the last digit of a measurement. Inconsistency in counting number of significant figures.
The need for s.f. is born out of a need for a very simple method to keep track of precision, so the output is not more precise than the input. Precision and uncertainties are the same thing in my books, maintaining the same level of precision is the same as maintaining the same level of relative uncertainty.
I agree that uncertainties and s.f. are different things, that's simply because s.f. is not capable at handling uncertainties properly. S.f. is simply just a metric that's somewhat related to uncertainties, but does not allow you to calculate the uncertainties.
This begs the question, why use s.f. in the first place if it cannot handle uncertainties? I don't think s.f. is useful, it is just another metric that doesn't handle uncertainties. I can easily go invent my own metric that doesn't handle uncertainties, and then go about using it to no real purposes. Same deal really.
The only credit I will give is that s.f. is extremely simple to compute for simple cases, it gives a rough indication of what the uncertainties are without any calculation. That is sometimes nice to know.

Significant figures are always used in physical sciences, in both study and research.
Of course. S.f. is a quick and easy way to keep track of precision, I use it all the time as a mental check so I'm more confident about my actual uncertainties calculations. I would only use s.f. if all I need to do is to count digits. If the situation demands me to put effort into keeping track of s.f. via partial derivatives and whatnot, then I might as well put in the effort to use a better method of handling uncertainties rather than sticking with s.f.

Quote
In Item 1. Significant figure is not a good method 'in doing what'?
The example given is like using a metre ruler to measure a kilometre long distance. Suppose each time you measure 1 m, there is an uncertainty of 1 cm, (1.00 +/- 0.01)m. After using the ruler 1000 times, the uncertainty in the measured distance is 10 m, so (1000 +/- 10) m or (1.00 +/- 0.01) km. So the measurement has 3 sig. figs. The number of significant figures in a measurement depends on the uncertainty in the measurement, you cannot tell it from the measurement.
You almost understood what I mean. I was trying to draw the contrast between and
The magnitudes of the two answers are close, yet the uncertainties differ by a whole order of magnitude. The converse is also true, where the two numbers differ by an order of magnitude, but the uncertainties are the same. It's this bias in base 10 which makes it not 'good' for handling uncertainties in physical sciences.
Uncertainties should propagate at least linearly with the magnitude of the quantity (I'm not talking about transcendentals, let's ignore them for now). S.f. does not give this kind of propagation.

Quote
In rule 2i, cx does not indicate the accuracy (sig. fig.) of the measurement.
No idea what you are pointing to there, cx is the magnitude of the product, sf(cx)~sf(x) is the general rule that uncertainties scale linearly with multiplcation, or in the case of s.f., uncertainties jumps by a factor of 10 every now and then.
cx is the magnitude of the product, sf(cx)~sf(x)     Please explain why. I could not find any authority on this.

Accuracy and precision, are they the same thing?

You said: I might as well put in the effort to use a better method of handling uncertainties rather than sticking with s.f.
Once again you have lost me. My understanding is: in physical sciences experiments are conducted and measurements are recorded. When recording a measurement you firstly find the uncertainty of that measurement by whatever methods and then present the measurement with the correct number of significant figures to indicate the accuracy of the recorded measurement.
You seemed to be saying uncertainties and sig figs are the same things.


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Re: sig figs
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2012, 09:55:55 am »
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"cx is the magnitude of the product, sf(cx)~sf(x)     Please explain why. I could not find any authority on this."

There's no authority needed for that, Mao derived it himself for you just then.

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Re: sig figs
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2012, 11:02:36 am »
+1
@yawho, let me first say that I have evidence that you are evading multiple bans from the past. However, for the sake of the current intellectual argument, I shall continue to entertain you.

cx is the magnitude of the product, sf(cx)~sf(x)     Please explain why. I could not find any authority on this.

c is a constant known to infinite precision. x is a measurement known to sf(x) digits. If you follow the derivation, you'll find that sf(c*x)~sf(x). I don't think there are any grounds for dispute here, unless you are going to argue . In which case that derivation will change a bit, involve a few case-clauses, but otherwise will be using the same general principle.

Quote
Accuracy and precision, are they the same thing?
Of course not, but why are we talking about accuracy? I don't think either of us mentioned accuracy at all.

Quote
You said: I might as well put in the effort to use a better method of handling uncertainties rather than sticking with s.f.
Once again you have lost me. My understanding is: in physical sciences experiments are conducted and measurements are recorded. When recording a measurement you firstly find the uncertainty of that measurement by whatever methods and then present the measurement with the correct number of significant figures to indicate the accuracy of the recorded measurement.
That's where you are mistaken. For two reasons:
1. Accuracy is how well your measurement compares to the true physical value, but since we don't know what the true physical value is, there is no way to judge the actual accuracy of measurements. We can only attempt to show, via theory and other independent measurements, that the measurement is consistent with other observations, and thus is accurate.
2. If we present a physical measurement, we must always give the uncertainty. S.F. is a crude way of doing so, but it is seriously insufficient. This is presenting a measurement: , this is presenting a measurement using s.f. . What's the difference? For starters, the amounts of uncertainties are different. Secondly, s.f. doesn't give us the mean of the measurement, it simply brackets the expected result to the nearest decade. Is it incorrect? No. Is it useful? Also no.
3. You may argue that s.f. are still important. Suppose that the measurement is , we should then round everything to , because there isn't any point to quoting 8 s.f. if we are uncertain about the last 5 or 6 digits. This is not applying the s.f., this is common sense. Also, a much better method (in my opinion) is to quote it as , but in calculations we keep using

Quote
You seemed to be saying uncertainties and sig figs are the same things.
They are not the same thing. S.f. is a failed attempt at handling uncertainties.
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Re: sig figs
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2012, 01:41:45 pm »
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@yawho, let me first say that I have evidence that you are evading multiple bans from the past. However, for the sake of the current intellectual argument, I shall continue to entertain you.

cx is the magnitude of the product, sf(cx)~sf(x)     Please explain why. I could not find any authority on this.

c is a constant known to infinite precision. x is a measurement known to sf(x) digits. If you follow the derivation, you'll find that sf(c*x)~sf(x). I don't think there are any grounds for dispute here, unless you are going to argue . In which case that derivation will change a bit, involve a few case-clauses, but otherwise will be using the same general principle.

Quote
Accuracy and precision, are they the same thing?
Of course not, but why are we talking about accuracy? I don't think either of us mentioned accuracy at all.

Quote
You said: I might as well put in the effort to use a better method of handling uncertainties rather than sticking with s.f.
Once again you have lost me. My understanding is: in physical sciences experiments are conducted and measurements are recorded. When recording a measurement you firstly find the uncertainty of that measurement by whatever methods and then present the measurement with the correct number of significant figures to indicate the accuracy of the recorded measurement.
That's where you are mistaken. For two reasons:
1. Accuracy is how well your measurement compares to the true physical value, but since we don't know what the true physical value is, there is no way to judge the actual accuracy of measurements. We can only attempt to show, via theory and other independent measurements, that the measurement is consistent with other observations, and thus is accurate.
2. If we present a physical measurement, we must always give the uncertainty. S.F. is a crude way of doing so, but it is seriously insufficient. This is presenting a measurement: , this is presenting a measurement using s.f. . What's the difference? For starters, the amounts of uncertainties are different. Secondly, s.f. doesn't give us the mean of the measurement, it simply brackets the expected result to the nearest decade. Is it incorrect? No. Is it useful? Also no.
3. You may argue that s.f. are still important. Suppose that the measurement is , we should then round everything to , because there isn't any point to quoting 8 s.f. if we are uncertain about the last 5 or 6 digits. This is not applying the s.f., this is common sense. Also, a much better method (in my opinion) is to quote it as , but in calculations we keep using

Quote
You seemed to be saying uncertainties and sig figs are the same things.
They are not the same thing. S.f. is a failed attempt at handling uncertainties.
Accuracy is how well your measurement compares to the true physical value, but since we don't know what the true physical value is, there is no way to judge the actual accuracy of measurements.
Suppose we want to deliver a volume of 90 mL with a 10.00 mL pipette.  90 mL is the true physical value?

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Re: sig figs
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2012, 05:23:04 pm »
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500.0 is 3 sig figs?
or 4

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Re: sig figs
« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2012, 05:47:02 pm »
+1
4 sig figs. Whenever you have numbers before a decimal point and then after, you always include the latter numbers as well, even if they are zero's. For example 562.12 is 5 sig figs and 16.0 is three. However a number such as 0.00120 only has three sig figs.

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Re: sig figs
« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2012, 06:06:53 pm »
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and also use lowest sig figs in orginal question for your answer yep? and not the lowest sig figs in the mini questions as in...1a) b) etc..
but the lowest sig figs in In 100ml of balbalhbalbhaa....

AND therefore in one question, all your answers will be to the same number of sig figs no matter how many parts?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 06:10:05 pm by destain »

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Re: sig figs
« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2012, 06:14:03 pm »
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and also use lowest sig figs in orginal question for your answer yep? and not the lowest sig figs in the mini questions as in...1a) b) etc..
but the lowest sig figs in In 100ml of balbalhbalbhaa....

AND therefore in one question, all your answers will be to the same number of sig figs no matter how many parts?

I used lowest sig figs in all my qns, even mini qns. But I always used the calculator value for the next part.
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Re: sig figs
« Reply #43 on: May 29, 2012, 06:44:45 pm »
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Suppose we want to deliver a volume of 90 mL with a 10.00 mL pipette.  90 mL is the true physical value?
It's not about what we want to do, it's about how a measurement compares with the physical world.

Let's for instance look at the pipette. Let's presume we have a pipette which has a physical volume of exactly . The manufacturer tests the pipette, and find its volume to be , so the measurement range is . Since this braces the actual physical value, it is a good measurement.

We then accurately deliver 9 aliquots using this pipette. The total volume of the aliquots is .

If we use standard methods to treat the uncertainty, our estimate for the volume delivered will be , the measurement range is thus 89.955mL to 90.045mL. This is also a good measurement, as the measurement range braces the true physical value.

If we were to use s.f. only, then our estimate for the volume delivered will be , implying that we are confident the last digit is 0. However, the true physical value rounds to 90.01 mL. So in fact, s.f. has been shown to be inaccurate for this case.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 06:47:17 pm by Mao »
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Re: sig figs
« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2012, 07:06:44 pm »
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So if the question was...
The concentration of a solution is 0.2M and the volume is 0.1L

1a) Find the number of mol if 200ml of water is added to the solution.

b) Find the number of mol if 20ml of water is added to the solution.

In a and b, do you use 1,2,3 sig figs?