Who murdered the arts degree?

[ninwa]

@SDPHD: lol, you took 2 arts units and think you know everything about it. How about you actually try doing an arts DEGREE and going through 5 years of being mocked for it before you come here and think you have a valid opinion on overreacting.

I'm sorry, would you like to try my day job as a break from your dense work?

Even if you are joking, that is a false equivalence. I never questioned the value of a science degree. Science students do not get picked on nearly as much as arts students. Nobody's going to hear that you're doing a chemistry honours and go "haha what the fuck are you going to do with that, can I have fries with that?"

Some degrees do lead to a clear cut profession. Such as B.Teaching, B.Nursing, B.Engineering, MBBS, B.PharmSci., etc. I know very little about law, but I'm sure most people in LLB have a pretty clear career direction (at least, an immediate direction for the next 5~10 years). Similar goes for BComm. and BBus., though they are a bit broader. The same can't be said for BSc. and BA.

I'll give you teaching and nursing. Those are specialist degrees.

- B.Eng certainly does not necessarily lead to being an engineer.
- LLB is one of the most generalist degrees there is and most people I know have nfi what they're going to do with it. If there -is- a clear career direction I'd love to hear it. No seriously, because I have no idea what I'm going to do with my LLB and could do with some advice.
- What is this supposedly clear direction for commerce/business degrees? I know commerce grads doing things from starting their own business, to working for Toys R Us, to being some sort of analyst for the big 4, to going into academia.

It's a difference in the way of life, right? Some people choose to learn first, then apply what they know. Some people choose their career first, then learn what they need. If someone opts for the second path, then the career aspect of the degree is extremely important.

Right, and my point is that
1) careers for arts degrees still exist; and
2) if someone is doing arts for the knowledge aspect, then dissing them for it just shows an immense amount of ignorance (and should not be excused a la Paul's argument)

I'm not sure how accurate this is: http://sydney.edu.au/careers/career_advice/career_options/arts.shtml (Most likely to be very inaccurate), but it seems like the job market for specialists in Arts is quite small, the job market for "benefits from Arts" generally require further training (such as a Masters of something), and the alternative is the general non-specialist job market (which anyone can compete for).

How does this assessment compare to your idea of career paths for BA graduates?

And more importantly, if it is learning for the sake of learning, is the piece of paper important at all?

Yeah, that link looks about right. Looks pretty similar to this, actually.

If you want to find work in a specialized area related to your major, you may find that you need more than a pass degree. Professional scientists usually have at least an honours degree but more likely a PhD, particularly if working in research areas.

Even the "Careers using your other skills" section is very similar. I wonder if they just used a template and changed the degree names. Or perhaps the outcomes for science and arts students are just very similar.

I don't see the (incredibly funny!!!! /s) jokes about "take a science degree here" next to a picture of a toilet roll though.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the piece of paper comment?

[SDPHD]

@SDPHD: lol, you took 2 arts units and think you know everything about it.

Take your head out of your arse for a moment and let me know where I 'thought' that, please.

How about you actually try doing an arts DEGREE and going through 5 years of being mocked for it before you come here and think you have a valid opinion on overreacting.

Like I said before, if you enjoy doing it, who cares if you get mocked for it? Just get on with life.

PS - I didn't realise I needed an Arts degree to think I have a valid opinion on overreacting. I'll keep that in mind next time.

[aes_999]

^Allright guys, why don't we just let this slide? There is no need for this to escalate.

BUT, the moral of the story is that we should not bag arts students, or other students enrolled in other degrees for that matter. I mean, everyone has chosen their particular degree, and we should respect that. You could criticise people doing an arts degree, saying that it might not lead to get a stable job with decent income in the future, but it should stop right there. There is no need to ridicule them by creating the 'toilet paper degree' jokes. 

[ninwa]

PS - I didn't realise I needed an Arts degree to think I have a valid opinion on overreacting. I'll keep that in mind next time.

Yes sweet'ums, you should experience what it's liked to be mocked for doing an arts degree before you go around sanctimoniously proclaiming that people should just "get over it". Glad you get it

[SDPHD]

Yes sweet'ums, you should experience what it's liked to be mocked for doing an arts degree before you go around sanctimoniously proclaiming that people should just "get over it". Glad you get it

Getting mocked is getting mocked. If you get mocked for the degree you're doing or if you're getting mocked for any other aspect of your life, you're still getting mocked. Unless getting mocked for doing an Arts degree takes place in some dimension non-Arts people have no way of accessing and at a scale that non-Arts people will never be able to fathom, I don't see what differentiates it from being mocked for anything else. But again, I don't have an Arts degree so I better tread lightly.

If everybody spent their lives whining about some hardship they endured at some point in their lives, wouldn't this world be a lovely place to be? Plenty of people go through shit and just as many 'get over it'. Do I need a degree to understand and give my opnion on hardship too? Because I've been through my fair share without one.

But hey, I could be wrong, please let me know.

[enwiabe]

SDPHD, if you don't want to be called a dick, don't be a dick.

You're the one whining about those who are fed up with your shit calling you out for being a condescending pisswank.

Your sanctimonious "I have done arts subjects, therefore I know what it's like and so I can mock them" doesn't hold any water at all. You're just inventing an excuse.

You are more than welcome to mock arts students, but don't be surprised when they turn around and call you a dickhead for doing it. And you are being a dickhead. You just want a license to bully people you feel are inferior to remove focus from your own insecurities. I get it, but my message to you is to simply grow up.

[SDPHD]

I'm so sorry that everything that I have said is so outrageously childish that I haven't been able to get straightforward responses to any of them, only tangential statements that bring up even more questions that don't get answered.

You just want a license to bully people you feel are inferior to remove focus from your own insecurities.

Mate, you seem to know me better than I do. Tell me more.

[enwiabe]

Mate, you seem to know me better than I do. Tell me more.

Speaking of tangential statements...

[paulsterio]

I wouldn't say I agree with everything SDPHD said, but in his defence, he brought up a good point - all degrees have stereotypes and get bagged to a certain extent. I get bagged because of how long a medical degree is - I'm sure you've all heard Medical School jokes before - google them - I won't list them - there's just too many. Commerce students have their own stereotypes and jokes (international student jokes, marketing jokes, typical accountants have high suicide rates jokes), Engineering also has its own jokes about having no girls.

In a sense, he's right - people bag him, he bags other people - of course it'd be better if no one bagged anyone - but it's true, it's not just the arts students that are the butt of jokes.

[JellyDonut]

Science students flip the best burgers as they're already handling industrial amounts of toxins at uni.

[enwiabe]

Paulsterio, but only arts students are told they have no future. Do you understand that the gravity of the jokes differ, and that the arts stereotypes are extremely denigrating and get tiring and annoying? Do you understand how it becomes abusive?

Are you and SDPHD incapable of empathy?

[paulsterio]

Yeah, of course I understand that, and no, I do have empathy, because I wouldn't wanna be the butt of harsh jokes either, but I just reckon everyone came crashing down on SDPHD a little bit too harshly, but believe me, I would never agree that arts jokes are acceptable, I just think everyone here was just a little too fired up. :\

[Mao]

@ninwa, I won't quote the parts I agree with you, you have some very good points in there. These are my differences,

I'm sorry, would you like to try my day job as a break from your dense work?

Even if you are joking, that is a false equivalence. I never questioned the value of a science degree. Science students do not get picked on nearly as much as arts students. Nobody's going to hear that you're doing a chemistry honours and go "haha what the fuck are you going to do with that, can I have fries with that?"

It's not entirely true that BSc is universally recognised as a 'good' degree. I've had many people on different occasions ask me why don't I do Eng and Comm instead, even people in BSc make fun of its (lack of) job prospects. BSc, like BA, doesn't lead to any particular careers either, and the very small specialist job market is also very competitive and generally always require a Ph.D. But, we don't get nearly as much shit as BA does, so the anger part is quite different.

- B.Eng certainly does not necessarily lead to being an engineer.
- LLB is one of the most generalist degrees there is and most people I know have nfi what they're going to do with it. If there -is- a clear career direction I'd love to hear it. No seriously, because I have no idea what I'm going to do with my LLB and could do with some advice.
- What is this supposedly clear direction for commerce/business degrees? I know commerce grads doing things from starting their own business, to working for Toys R Us, to being some sort of analyst for the big 4, to going into academia.

I would disagree with this. B.Eng generally lead to being an engineer, I won't comment on LLB because I know nothing about it, for Comm/Bus, depending on your major you generally get a job in that field (Marketing/Accountancy/etc). Degrees don't necessarily lock people in that field, you don't have to be an engineer if you take B.Eng, but you always have that qualification to fall back on if your other life adventures don't work out too well. Same argument goes for other vocational degrees.

1) careers for arts degrees still exist

Just like how careers for BSc exists (which is only really in R&D or QC). No one goes into BSc at the age of 18 thinking they'll come out with a job in R&D, no one exits BSc at the age of 21 thinking they can get a job in R&D. It's a privilege if you can go into the specialist fields, but you don't expect to get in easily. So in my opinion, there is no 'general' career path for the layperson doing BA or BSc, not like how there is a general career path in front of a BEng. graduate.

Or perhaps the outcomes for science and arts students are just very similar.

They are, considering the graduates are qualified for being able to think (rather than knowing how to build a particular type of bridge). Most people go and compete in the 'general' job market, I guess.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the piece of paper comment?

I'm saying, for most people, is getting a degree science/arts really necessary? It is after all taxpayer's money, so you are asking people who choose vocation over learning to partially fund the people who choose learning for the sake of learning. I can see why BEng/BComm/etc will be unhappy about this, some will see funding to BA/BSc as a waste.

I'm not sure if there is a better system, but I think the problem lies in early developments. Australia as a whole has very poor appreciation for the arts (different for science/technology), which may be why BA seems to cop all the shit. But the trouble is, if the parents are vocational oriented, taught by teachers who are also vocational oriented, chances are the child will only know about careers.

I watched a few interesting TED videos related to this topic:
http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html
http://www.ted.com/talks/sir_ken_robinson_bring_on_the_revolution.html
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/ken_robinson_changing_education_paradigms.html

Our education culture is too 'industrial' focused. It all needs to change.

[Mao]

On a side note,

I make fun of Arts students - they don't care. I make fun of Commerce students - they don't understand what I say (lawl internationals). People make fun of me - I don't care.

This is possibly the best life philosophy one can take. Don't take things seriously, especially don't take yourself seriously.

I think I can agree with everything SDPHD has said. Though I don't think I have any authority in this thread, I don't feel the butthurt. I suppose people should make fun of what we do and see if we stand up to our philosophy of not taking ourselves seriously.

[Russ]

I agree that you shouldn't take everything seriously and I don't. I make jokes about inappropriate things and don't believe in the whole political correctness thing, but; if you offend someone, then it's your fault and you apologize and don't do it again.

So:

If everybody spent their lives whining about some hardship they endured at some point in their lives, wouldn't this world be a lovely place to be? Plenty of people go through shit and just as many 'get over it'. Do I need a degree to understand and give my opnion on hardship too? Because I've been through my fair share without one.

But hey, I could be wrong, please let me know.

I take issue with this. The attitude of "everybody else went through it/goes through it, so harden up and deal with it yourself" is a fucking terrible one. Telling people to just "get on with life" and not worry about what other people think or say demonstrates that you've pretty much missed the point entirely. Reinforcing a paradigm where you can say whatever you want and it's the other person's fault if they're offended because they should be able to deal with it is just horrible.

Not only does it lead to mental health issues but it breeds a pretty broken social interaction scale.