[Discussion] AMSA against UMAT prep courses

[pi]

http://www.amsa.org.au/press-release/20120725-amsa-calls-for-end-to-predatory-umat-preparation-courses


What are your thoughts? Agree/disagree?


Personally, I take issue with:

at most, minimally effective at improving UMAT scores and chance of admission to medical school.

I definitely think that they help with S3 and S1 to an extent, but not really with S2. However, having said that, most of us never really hear much about those stories that are far from successful. I image that the vast majority of those using such course do NOT gain a UMAT that helps with gaining an interview, however, without much data, this is only my own speculation.

However, I do agree strongly with this:

“These companies operate in an unregulated commercial environment and take advantage of high school students at a vulnerable time in their lives.

...

With claims including “we get you into medicine”, “we can maximise your chances of getting into medicine”, “[our courses are] critically important”, it is little wonder that high schools students feel pressured to hand over large amounts of money to these companies.

The prices are absolutely huge and really unfair, with many feeling they should purchase just so they don't feel "disadvantaged" to their friends. Even the cheaper courses rip students off imo and the financial/social stresses still apply here too.

This is also very interesting:

AMSA calls upon medical schools and the Federal Government to regulate the industry and prevent misleading advertising from commercial UMAT training providers.

Worth noting that AMSA is one of the more successful student associations in Australia, mainly because of it's backing by AMA.

If this occurs, what will the reaction from upcoming students be? Will they be thankful or outraged?

[brenden]

I don't think anyone should be outraged. It's a standardised  test, not meant to be studied for. Without any prep, it does what it's intended to do, and if people are outraged that they didn't get into the higher percentiles but might have if they could pay for something then they should headbutt something solid.
On the greediness and immorality of the prep courses, there isn't much for me to say here that hasn't been said on the "extortionate UMAT industry" thread.

[pi]

Agreed, I really think that most of the people who get 85%ile+ would probably have done so if they did no prep whatsoever.

However, what inclines my opinion to that of AMSA's is the obvious disadvantage I can see the prep giving to those who are financially unable to afford it. Of course, there is a counter-argument that this also happens in VCE etc etc with tutors and whatnot. But the difference is that the UMAT is not meant to be studied for, whilst VCE is.

Just my take on it.

[Bhootnike]

Well they definitely cost a shit load.
Definitely not worth the money imo!
You can get books for UMAT prep cheaper with questions in them, e.g UMAT 456 from umattutor for like 100 bucks and thats intensive section 3 work.
.. in the end, it comes down to your choice.
I didn't get medentry and my approach to UMAT was 1 acer exam, and use of various books i got from school on loan, some books i got when applying for MHS ( .. lol, like mensa IQ) .
and in the end, i didnt struggle with s1 or s2. just s3. so, yeah, personally i think the courses offered nowadays are a rip off.

[thushan]

http://www.amsa.org.au/press-release/20120725-amsa-calls-for-end-to-predatory-umat-preparation-courses


What are your thoughts? Agree/disagree?


Personally, I take issue with:

at most, minimally effective at improving UMAT scores and chance of admission to medical school.

I definitely think that they help with S3 and S1 to an extent, but not really with S2. However, having said that, most of us never really hear much about those stories that are far from successful. I image that the vast majority of those using such course do NOT gain a UMAT that helps with gaining an interview, however, without much data, this is only my own speculation.

However, I do agree strongly with this:

“These companies operate in an unregulated commercial environment and take advantage of high school students at a vulnerable time in their lives.

...

With claims including “we get you into medicine”, “we can maximise your chances of getting into medicine”, “[our courses are] critically important”, it is little wonder that high schools students feel pressured to hand over large amounts of money to these companies.

The prices are absolutely huge and really unfair, with many feeling they should purchase just so they don't feel "disadvantaged" to their friends. Even the cheaper courses rip students off imo and the financial/social stresses still apply here too.

This is also very interesting:

AMSA calls upon medical schools and the Federal Government to regulate the industry and prevent misleading advertising from commercial UMAT training providers.

Worth noting that AMSA is one of the more successful student associations in Australia, mainly because of it's backing by AMA.

If this occurs, what will the reaction from upcoming students be? Will they be thankful or outraged?

Personally, I'm not a fan of UMAT prep courses in general, primarily because of the excessive cost. For instance, I had actually ordered the Practice Test 2 from ACER and done it before I started MedEntry. I did MedEntry, then did the ACER test again just before the real UMAT. I actually had a significant improvement in Section 2 but my Sections 1 and 3 barely changed (however, remember that I had done the exact same test before - so there is some practice factor):

Before: S1 36/44 S2 22/40 S3 30/38
After: S1 39/44 S2 30/40 S3 32/38

However, if there is a UMAT prep course that is affordable and does not make misleading claims, then I would not be against it as much.

It's freaking scary though. They put in the UMAT to curb the ATAR cut in the first place (which was in excess of 99.7 prior to the UMAT, Melbourne Med was 99.85 CSP in 2007/8 even when UMAT was present - unless your UMAT was insanely high), but now its the UMAT which is, in my opinion, a lot more random than say an ATAR, and is the main determinant in terms of getting into Med.

In my world, ATAR + interview would suffice. However, I get the feeling that this is not really practical.

[????]

You can study for it. When I first started studying for the UMAT I was literally getting owned. Through dedication and persistence I eventually reached my peak. Also I would like to point out that when I was doing LSAT questions some of them were the exactly same as the medentry ones, but, a small amount. Plus UMAT isn't a really a test suitable to judge if someone is suitable for medicine. Bring the MCAT here I say. I am just grateful that my parents paid for my UMAT prep couse and I'll pay them back through money or care I hope.

[pi]

In my world, ATAR + interview would suffice. However, I get the feeling that this is not really practical.

Not really a big fan of having ATARs solely dictating interviews tbh, but then again, not a huge fan of the UMAT being that dictator either.

Personally, I'd like there to be a test like the UMAT, but with short-answer style questions and then puzzle-style Section 3 MCQ problems. That would really reduce the "random guessing" of Section 2 and Section 1 that many applicants do.

For example, have questions asking the applicant to write how someone is feeling (section 2 style) or show the working (outline logic) on how to solve a problem (section 1 style).

I think that would make a better and fairer test.

However, very impractical. Needs examiners (2 for each test min - VCAA-esque) and with 22k students taking the test, would take very long to do. Not sure what the solution in that regard is.

[Bhootnike]

You can study for it. When I first started studying for the UMAT I was literally getting owned. Through dedication and persistence I eventually reached my peak. Also I would like to point out that when I was doing LSAT questions some of them were the exactly same as the medentry ones, but, a small amount. Plus UMAT isn't a really a test suitable to judge if someone is suitable for medicine. Bring the MCAT here I say. I am just grateful that my parents paid for my UMAT prep couse and I'll pay them back through money or care I hope.

you can i guess , but it doesnt guarantee admission into med as compared to someone who didnt do a prep course

[pi]

You can study for it. When I first started studying for the UMAT I was literally getting owned. Through dedication and persistence I eventually reached my peak. Also I would like to point out that when I was doing LSAT questions some of them were the exactly same as the medentry ones, but, a small amount. Plus UMAT isn't a really a test suitable to judge if someone is suitable for medicine. Bring the MCAT here I say. I am just grateful that my parents paid for my UMAT prep couse and I'll pay them back through money or care I hope.

That's great! But do you hear of stories that aren't so great? That's the problem imo, hard to gauge to success when no-one talks about the failures (and I don't blame).


Relevant image:

[brenden]

I never said you couldn't, I said it's not meant to be studied for. I'll still doubt the legitimacy until it's proven. I doubt any amount of prep would help a student distinguish between serene or menacing. (GAT reference FTW)
& Pi is right. Two girls at my school took it. One's a genius. Will be our dux. Not being a particularly high socio-economic area, she did the ACER prac's and that's it. She was considering medentry but really it would have f'cked her over.

[????]

at the end of the day it is hard work that gets people places. Chem helped me in UMAT titration curve!

[pi]

at the end of the day it is hard work that gets people places. Chem helped me in UMAT titration curve!

No real advantage as chem is a prereq for med and dent, the vast majority would have done chem too  

[Russ]

However, very impractical. Needs examiners (2 for each test min - VCAA-esque) and with 22k students taking the test, would take very long to do. Not sure what the solution in that regard is.

You'd be surprised. Scripts get done one per 5 minutes or so, so it'd only take a marking team a couple of weeks to do it.

What it would do is increase the cost of the test to closer to GAMSAT levels ($400)

[????]

however, this titration curve had to do with probability. Methochem FTW!

[enwiabe]

I think AMSA will thoroughly enjoy what we have to offer in a few months' time

I agree with them 100% that shit needs to change. I think there is definite collusion in the industry not to undercut each other. Some courses from different providers have identical pricing, which is surely not an accident.

However, I just feel that there is always going to be a market for parents who want their kids to do really well on the UMAT. It's just an absolute fucking shame that currently the only companies that operate in this environment are so predatory and so evil as to charge the maximum they can to bleed the most out of parents.

I'm hoping the AN offering will blow everyone else out of the water in terms of price and quality, and it would make me really happy to see the other providers lower their prices to compete with us. I wouldn't even mind if it reduced our market share, it would just make me happy knowing that these poor immigrant parents who just want the best for their kids aren't being ripped off of the precious little money that they have.