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Author Topic: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world  (Read 44144 times)  Share 

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Lasercookie

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Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
« Reply #90 on: September 19, 2012, 05:34:34 pm »
+8
Personally, I don't see what is so offensive about the film. I watched through that trailer and all I got out of it was some laughs at how badly produced it was. So what if someone decides to make a film about what is supposedly a depiction of the prophet Muhammad. Clearly that's not the 'true' depiction of Muhammad that Muslims believe in. I don't see how it could shake your beliefs. There's a lot worse criticisms / arguments against Islam out there that would seem a better candidate to rustle everyone's jimmies. The film pales in comparison in terms of being "offensive", to the extent it can be brushed off like a fly.

I guess there's the notion that there's a few people that don't like Muslims that's so offensive. So what if someone doesn't agree with your beliefs? They don't have to. So what if people don't like the prophet Muhammad? They don't have to.

If they were to actually impede upon your right to practice your religion, than that would be an issue. That doesn't seem to be occurring here. Likewise, everyone has the right to practice what they want to. Everybody has the right to have their beliefs criticised. If you still believe in it despite criticism, then I guess that's a strong indicator of the level of faith you have.

I don't know the exact hadith/quran references, but there's those parts where Muhammad himself copped a lot of persecution, but he simply took it like a boss and dealt with in a calm fashion. Compared to the persecution mentioned there, to get so worked up over a film seems to be a bit of joke.

The film trailer was out for a few months, because people were not aware of it there were no riots. It could just as easily be ignored right now. In terms of the Islamophobia in Western countries, just watching the news/political leaders speak, I don't see much support for the film in terms of what it's actual content is. I don't think it's valid to assume that the entire world is against Muslims / you personally. That's the kind of tone that you seem to be radiating. Yes, there is that minority that seems hell-bent on persecuting Muslims - which is really only an issue if it doesn't remain peaceful / if that respect as human beings is lost (to criticise Islam isn't necessarily losing respect for you as a person, they have a right to disagree with it). I think if you look on the bright side - and especially the situation in Australia, it's actually pretty damn good.

Specifically to the Sydney protest / in Australia:
I didn't see the Australian leaders condemn Islam as a whole. Instead what I saw a support for religious tolerance. Obviously the violent behaviour has been condemned by all. In that police conference it was noted that the protest wasn't registered lawfully beforehand. Why not?

Personally, I don't see why (even a peaceful) protest over the film is even worth it. If it's to create better awareness of Islam in Australia then there's better means of doing that (and probably would relate to issues irrelevant to this film).
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 05:36:42 pm by laseredd »

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Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
« Reply #91 on: September 19, 2012, 05:39:43 pm »
0
@multiaccounting dude, I like the way you're selectively not responding to things

Kinda supports the point that religion is not necessary to develop good morals.

You can always continue this discussion into the realm of what quantifies good morals or bad morals in the absence of a divine figure/hard moral code
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 05:42:52 pm by Thomas the Tank Engine »

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Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
« Reply #92 on: September 19, 2012, 05:43:43 pm »
0
http://www.islamicwritings.org/quran/peace/does-the-quran-teach-violence/
oh god.. not this again

- if i bring up verses from the quran to support my position, you will say the verses are out of context
- if i bring up verses from the hadith to support my claims (even if I'm quoting from a reliable and trusted Sunni Islamic source such as Sahih Bukhari or Sahih Muslim) you will say it is not reliable


so please.. tell me why the verse is out of context, if you read the verses before and after it you will see that it is perfectly within the right context.

generally it's very hard to be open-minded if you are deeply religious because you only accept the evidence that agrees with your position.
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Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
« Reply #93 on: September 19, 2012, 06:07:50 pm »
+1
@ ninatron many people on this forum as well as not, are defending the film justifying it as 'freedom of speech'.

I never said that anyone should've and should resort to violence. But it happened. What also happened was that film. No one will talk about the film though!

enough said.

The fact that you blame the film shows that you think the violence was, in some way, justified. That a mere film, which most of the protestors didn't even SEE, justified the deaths of innocent embassy workers, the damaging of property and the injuring of police.

That to me is a whole lot more disgusting than the film itself.

No ninatron it doesn't show that i justify the violence- it shows that i justify the anger, NOT the VIOLENCE.
As I have said before, I really really wish that the violence hadn't happened and am extremely SORRY for it too. I wish the people who did this had instead thought about a more rational and peaceful way to deal with, it is NOT FAIR that innocent people have been killed in other countries because of this.

It is also NOT FAIR that this movie was made in the first place. But anyways, no one will ever see that, so I guess there is no point in me explaining that.

So where do I stand? well like i've said many times I wish the protest had been different not only here but everywhere else in the world and I only hope that people see that most of us Muslim's sitting at home are quite disappointed about the reaction too, we are also disappointed about the stupid film (which should already be banned). But it is concerning looking at how people have quickly begun to put us all under the same label as 'extremists' etc.

I just hope things calm down, the movie gets deleted and people learn to just respect each other's religion so we can all live peacefully without discrimination and clear channeling of hate towards one religion. I mean what's the point of stupid movie's like that anyway? And when I say this I say it for all religions. We all have different faiths, some don't believe at all but we need to learn to respect each other and be sensitive to each other's feelings. If we all could just give each other some respect and be kind and thoughtful to each other no matter what religion/race/culture etc. this world be a much happier place.

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Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
« Reply #94 on: September 19, 2012, 06:16:48 pm »
+2
Again, nobody is defending the film. I don't know where you got that from.

But just because you don't like something doesn't mean it should be deleted.
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Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
« Reply #95 on: September 19, 2012, 06:18:11 pm »
+2
@ ninatron many people on this forum as well as not, are defending the film justifying it as 'freedom of speech'.

I never said that anyone should've and should resort to violence. But it happened. What also happened was that film. No one will talk about the film though!

enough said.

The fact that you blame the film shows that you think the violence was, in some way, justified. That a mere film, which most of the protestors didn't even SEE, justified the deaths of innocent embassy workers, the damaging of property and the injuring of police.

That to me is a whole lot more disgusting than the film itself.

No ninatron it doesn't show that i justify the violence- it shows that i justify the anger, NOT the VIOLENCE.
As I have said before, I really really wish that the violence hadn't happened and am extremely SORRY for it too. I wish the people who did this had instead thought about a more rational and peaceful way to deal with, it is NOT FAIR that innocent people have been killed in other countries because of this.

It is also NOT FAIR that this movie was made in the first place. But anyways, no one will ever see that, so I guess there is no point in me explaining that.

So where do I stand? well like i've said many times I wish the protest had been different not only here but everywhere else in the world and I only hope that people see that most of us Muslim's sitting at home are quite disappointed about the reaction too, we are also disappointed about the stupid film (which should already be banned). But it is concerning looking at how people have quickly begun to put us all under the same label as 'extremists' etc.

I just hope things calm down, the movie gets deleted and people learn to just respect each other's religion so we can all live peacefully without discrimination and clear channeling of hate towards one religion. I mean what's the point of stupid movie's like that anyway? And when I say this I say it for all religions. We all have different faiths, some don't believe at all but we need to learn to respect each other and be sensitive to each other's feelings. If we all could just give each other some respect and be kind and thoughtful to each other no matter what religion/race/culture etc. this world be a much happier place.

It is fair that the movie was made. There are no laws against the movie that he made in Australia. Sure, he *shouldn't* have done so, and the majority of us disagree with it, but there is nothing that should be done except for you to just deal with it, and move on.
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Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
« Reply #96 on: September 19, 2012, 07:25:35 pm »
0
Quote from my mum just then: "Do you know any Muslims? Be careful what you say around them! You might get hurt!"

Is this how you want your religion to be perceived? Would you rather be feared or respected?
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Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
« Reply #97 on: September 20, 2012, 02:09:21 am »
+1
Late to the party but my internet miraculously died as i was writing this and didn't return for a few days ( a sign!).

TL;DR Their violence isn't right. Even if the film is horrible, it isn't a proper reaction. At the same time though, we shouldn't ignore the maker of the film was also hateful nor should we accept islamophobia or anything like that.

edit:
Also, I don't understand why you are calling for people to focus on the filmmaker immediately after you acknowledged yourself that the film has very little to do with it:

That was because it wasn't actually the point i was trying to make, at all.

You (unintentionally i'm sure) misread my argument and responded to what you thought it was about.

I don't want to be one of those dicks who shouts out fallacies in conversations like this because they read a wikipedia page, we know whats wrong with this one though.

Intelligence does suggest that it was a preplanned attack. I'm not blaming the film makers for the murders or anything like that, that is quite obviously the reaction of the people to it and its ultimately the fault of the people who perpetrate these crimes.

The point i was trying to make is we're all bashing on about how hateful Muslims are but we're ignoring this film which is hateful within itself. We're giving so much press and showing images of angry Muslims on TV but we're not throwing light on this islamophobic film, which is obviously created to seed hatred, for what it is. It almost seems like when muslims shout at the guy for making this film its hateful but the converse, the guy who made the film isn't nearly as hateful.

That is the point i was trying to make. It almost seems we're accepting of hatred against Muslims here or  that it's ok to hate Muslims.

We can't act like it isn't a problem and we can't like it isn't getting worse either, from a recent poll:

Quote
And Tuesday’s poll echoed that experience, with nearly half of American Muslims saying they had experienced religious or racial discrimination within the past year. About one-third of Mormons said that they had faced discrimination, compared to only one-fifth of Jews, Catholics and Protestants.

They get a far disproportionate amount of press and public anxiety towards them as a community. The media is feeding the frenzy.

The data shows it isn't wholly deserved either (obviously).

A recent report by Europol shows most terrorist attacks are by political groups or separatist groups in the EU:

Quote
The decline in the number of attacks in the EU continued in 2011 with a total of 174 attacks in seven Member States.

The majority of the reported terrorist attacks took place in France (85), Spain (47) and the United Kingdom (26). Spain saw the number of separatist attacks decrease by nearly 50% compared to 2010. A total of 484 individuals were arrested for terrorism-related offences.

Not one religiously-inspired terrorist attack on EU territory was reported by Member States, nor were any single-issue terrorist attacks registered. The killing of two American military personnel at Frankfurt airport by a religiously-inspired individual in March 2011 is not a terrorist attack according to German legislation, although the incident clearly carried some such char-acteristics. Of all specified affiliations, the majority of attacks were committed by separatist groups.

https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/publications/europoltsat.pdf

If we learnt anything from Brevikand Norway its that breeding this kind of hate against minorities can also lead to terrorism and violence.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 02:17:04 am by kingpomba »

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Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
« Reply #98 on: September 20, 2012, 02:35:24 am »
+1
I really don't know how many more times I have to say this:

Nobody is defending the damn film.

Again, nobody is defending the film. I don't know where you got that from.

Nobody is arguing that it wasn't hateful (although to be honest I almost fell asleep watching it and have barely any idea what it was even about - and I'm pretty sure most of the rioters haven't watched it either)
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Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
« Reply #99 on: September 20, 2012, 03:17:36 am »
0
A strict reading of the Quran, the traditional scholar's interpretation,and the hadith suggests that they're actions aren't condemned by the good book.

A strict reading of Dr. Seuss does in-fact compliment my cherished belief that there is indeed a cat in the hat.

The thing people are failing to appreciate is that Islam is not a monolithic bloc.

There is are more than a few different schools of interpretation and historicity, not to mention regional and personal variation as well. In the same way you can't point to a Christianity, you can't point to a Islam.

Just look at the imams in Saudia Arabia....you will see that those who are hardcore fundamentalists...

If you don't understand why this is true in Saudia Arabia then you know absolutely nothing about the history of the kingdom.

It goes back to the establishment of the Saudi state where the house of Saud (why does that sound familiar) made a pact with the house of al-Wahhab. Essentially, the al-saud's would control the temporal realm - economy, external security, etc whilst the house of al-Wahhab had control of the spiritual realm and everything that obviously entails.

The interpretation laid down by al-Wahhab at the time was extremely hard-line (and still is), aka the Wahhabi schoool. To make matters worse this has been for a long time the official school of Islamic thought in the kingdom and the scholars have been propelled to high positions. Saudi Arabia is also pouring tremendous amounts of oil wealth into spreading their particular interpretation (see soft power).

It would sort of be like if we lived in a time when the power of the church was intertwined with the holy roman empire (anyone remember the inquisitions?). A time we can't forget that the church was massively corrupt and mal-aligned.

generally endorse these violent acts (especially towards Jews).

Christians and Jews as "People of the Book" (eg. the abrahamic religions)/ ahl al-kitab have a special protected status within Islam. Let's not forget, historically, the jews were a collection of tribes in arabia and conflicts happened in the distant history. Let us also not forget that Israel has caused significant tensions for Arab nations but this is a political issue as well.

At one the of high points of Islamic culture and politics in Spain (Muslims did actually reach all the way into Europe, Spain of course being just below France, many seem surprised by that) Jews, Christians and Muslims managed to co-exist relatively peacefully and with relative freedom and prosperity (want more info? clickity click).

There is a difference between hating jews and being opposed to the state of Israel in its current form in one way or another. You can be opposed to North Korea and the government but not be necessarily against the north korean people.

We also shouldn't confound things done especially in the name of Islam with things that have happened to of occur in Islamic places or be committed by Islamic people. People were doing horrible shit to each other way before Islam came along (surprise!). People will continue to do horrible shit. In less than developed countries like China, with a low level of religiosity, we still see plenty of cases of rape, murder, revenged, etc.

I can garauntee you for a fact that those who were protesting in Sydney were the ones who took their religion seriously (going to the mosque continually, reading the quran, reading the hadith, etc.) and those at home watching their fellow brothers and sisters in Islam make a fool of themselves didn't.

The ones that went are more likely than not fired up young men. The word was spread by a text-message. The kind of pictures show us a similar age distribution that we saw at the unfortunate tragedy that was Cronulla. A fair few of those i would wager are Muslims in name alone and only went to protect community identity or out of some kind of perceived insult. If you asked them, they might say they were a Muslim but then head down to the club on the weekend, get smashed and never pray. Sometimes its a fine line between who and who isn't a muslim but in my example, they aren't. The others in the protest are the more conservative elements that obviously got fired up by this kind of thing.

All movements have their odd-balls. There is a particular paleogeologist who invoked the kraken (a super intelligent sea monster) to explain a certain distribution of fossils. Is he representative of geologists? Are the ultra-conservative American Christians who are absolutely opposed to evolution and so many teachings about social justice representative of Christianity as a whole? Nope. It's not black and white, its shades of grey. There are plenty of decent Muslims out there who just go about their daily life like you and me and practice their religion in private. The idiots just happen to shout louder and get more press.  We shouldn't forget there were plenty of people peacefully protesting (which is a democratic right, absolutely nothing wrong with this), talking to the community about Islam and handing out brochures and qurans to those who wanted them. Sadly, all their efforts and sentiments were worried by the dickish few. Muslims being average people like everyone else or helping out the community doesn't nearly sell as many papers or generate as much press as a minority doing scary things.

------

It seems people here have absolutely 0 understanding of the Quran or Islamic History (not targeting you specifically thushan) and proceed to make claims based off that obviously flawed knowledge. Imagine attempting surgery with your sole qualifications being that you played the game operation once.

Whereas the violent verses in the Quran came later and renounced the peaceful ones. :/

You'll find its in reverse. A more correct term for what you called renunciation is "abrogation".

The Quran is split into distinct portions revealed in certain places, in certain times, under certain circumstances.

A lot of the supposedly violent verses that are often taken out of context refer to the conflicts that the Muslims and Muhammed (unlike Jesus he was also a politician and a general) were in at the time. Some of this can be seen simply by reading the context around the passages and others can be obtained by reading interpretative material.

------------

Can you please explain to my why is it we see this type of violent reaction ONLY from Muslims? Why don't Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, or Jews get offended when their religion is portrayed in a negative light, they are as passionate about their religion as Muslims.

Ill just leave this here... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_violence_in_India#Modern_India
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 03:28:03 am by kingpomba »

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Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
« Reply #100 on: September 20, 2012, 09:00:48 am »
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But the question is, are people meant to take the Quran THAT seriously? It draws parallels to the verses in the Old Testament (which encouraged some abhorrent things) and the New Testament. People tend to pick and choose the latter. Are these people not taking the Judeo-Christian faith seriously?

However, there is the point that the New Testament comes AFTER the Old Testament and, from my understanding, renounced the Old Testament, whereas the violent verses in the Quran came later and renounced the peaceful ones. :/

King - I stand corrected then. Should have said that my understanding of Islam and the like is limited - I was basing that last comment I said on the post above, which said that the later verses abrogated the earlier.
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Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
« Reply #101 on: September 20, 2012, 12:00:07 pm »
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Quote from my mum just then: "Do you know any Muslims? Be careful what you say around them! You might get hurt!"
Is this how you want your religion to be perceived? Would you rather be feared or respected?

Exactly what I mean by people are quickly extending the rally in Sydney to all Muslims which isn't fair at all. I don't want people to hate on me because i'm Muslim, or be fearful of me because i'm Muslim. I'm not violent, as a matter of fact i'm Muslim and I hate violence and I get extremely scared and hurt watching anyone get hurt. But does this fact not make me Muslim anymore? It's important to realise that those people who got violent were individuals and not representative of Islam or the Muslim people.

I think the movie was extremely stupid.. however I support their freedom to make it. The fact of the matter is we can't let freedom of speech that is one of the foundations of our civilization be trumped just because a bunch of thugs get butthurt and can't take criticism.

This is one example of someone being in support of the making of the film, there are many out there, you only have to view the comments people make to realise that people believe that a movie clearly encouraging the mocking of Muslims and instigating HATE towards them is okay to make and was Sam Bacile's RIGHT. I don't believe anyone should have the right to direct SO MUCH HATE towards a group and therefore encourage such behavior in any form whether that be a film or whatever.

KINGPOMBA Thanks a lot. You have no idea how much just one person trying to also focus on the movie and not just the reaction (which I too believe was very poor) means to all of us Muslims. Everyone has been giving the reaction so much attention, but not many people seem to think that the movie should also be condemned. And thanks for realizing that the majority of us are not the way the media has quite successfully (it's sad how much power media has on the public view) depicted.

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Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
« Reply #102 on: September 20, 2012, 12:16:01 pm »
+2
I think the movie was extremely stupid.. however I support their freedom to make it. The fact of the matter is we can't let freedom of speech that is one of the foundations of our civilization be trumped just because a bunch of thugs get butthurt and can't take criticism.

This is one example of someone being in support of the making of the film, there are many out there, you only have to view the comments people make to realise that people believe that a movie clearly encouraging the mocking of Muslims and instigating HATE towards them is okay to make and was Sam Bacile's RIGHT. I don't believe anyone should have the right to direct SO MUCH HATE towards a group and therefore encourage such behavior in any form whether that be a film or whatever.


Totally incorrect. The freedom of speech does not and should not depend on the consequences, the motivation or how others feel about it. Freedom of speech is not "you can say anything but only if <...>", the freedom of speech is "you can say anything" and that's simply it.

You've seen this quote before: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
And that is exactly what is happening here.

No one approves of the film, but Bacile's right to make the film is absolutely defended. This is at the core of US's first amendment, and also a very important part of many Western philosophies.

EDIT: to clarify, the right to freedom of speech does not depend on the consequences, but it does not preclude the person from the consequences.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 12:20:55 pm by Mao »
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Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
« Reply #103 on: September 20, 2012, 01:29:52 pm »
0
Freedom of speech is not "you can say anything but only if <...>", the freedom of speech is "you can say anything" and that's simply it.

This is totally incorrect.
"Exceptions to free speech in the United States are limitations on the First Amendment's guarantee of free speech and expression as recognized by the United States Supreme Court. These exceptions have been created over time, based on certain types of speech and expression, and under different contexts. While freedom of speech in the United States is a constitutional right, these exceptions make that right a limited one.  Speech that involves incitement, false statements of fact, obscenity, child pornography, threats, and speech owned by others are all completely exempt from First Amendment protections."

Fighting words and offensive speech
Main article: Fighting words
A Westboro Baptist Church protest was the subject of an "offensive speech" Supreme Court case in Snyder v. Phelps (2010)
In Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire (1942), the Supreme Court held that speech is unprotected if it constitutes "fighting words".[28] Fighting words, as defined by the Court, is speech that "tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace" by provoking a fight, so long as it is a "personally abusive [word] which, when addressed to the ordinary citizen, is, as a matter of common knowledge, inherently likely to provoke a violent reaction".[29] Additionally, such speech must be "directed to the person of the hearer" and is "thus likely to be seen as a 'direct personal insult'".[30][31]
Along with fighting words, speech might be unprotected if it either intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly inflicts severe emotional distress.[32] However, such a rule (which has never been explicitly decided) would be limited to private figures. The Court held in Hustler v. Falwell (1988) that satire which could be seen as offensive to a "public figure" is fully protected.[33] Such speech is rooted in a historical protection of political satire.[34] A notable example of a case involving offensive speech was the Court's decision in Texas v. Johnson (1989), which struck down a law criminalizing flag burning in Texas.[35]

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Re: Film trailer sparks protests across the Islamic world
« Reply #104 on: September 20, 2012, 01:51:54 pm »
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The video was uploaded into public domain. The only way you could and would get offended is if you searched for the video and watched it yourself. That is, it wasn't at all directed to any specific individual in particular. Plus, the freedom for satire is protected under US law, as you pointed out
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 01:57:23 pm by JellyDonut »
It's really not that hard to quantify..., but I believe that being raped once is not as bad as being raped five times, even if the one rape was by a gang of people.