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October 22, 2025, 09:39:34 am

Author Topic: Fucking stupid people shouldn't be in Parliament  (Read 22945 times)  Share 

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brenden

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Re: Fucking stupid people shouldn't be in Parliament
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2012, 05:31:10 pm »
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There's no such thing as being against gay marriage but not discriminating.
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ninwa

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Re: Fucking stupid people shouldn't be in Parliament
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2012, 05:45:10 pm »
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Yeah i can understand how a direct comparison of the two can be seen as very offensive. But seeing as this is the rants and debate forum, can i just say that not supporting gay marriage, while not unfairly discriminating against people's sexuality socially, professionally ext, doesn't necessarily make you an asshole but someone with a different view on where they want society to go?

What... you mean a segregated society? One which discriminates against people of different sexualities? Yeah sorry but if you're for that then you ARE an asshole.

There's no such thing as being against gay marriage but not discriminating.

Lol, I was listening to some Tasmanian Senator in the Senate debate on this today, and she was like "I don't like that you're calling me bigoted, I don't discriminate against homosexual couples, in fact I helped a gay couple do this and that blahblahblah I'm such an angel... However I think marriage should be between a man and a woman because heterosexual relationships are fundamentally different from homosexual ones"

Unbelievable...
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EvangelionZeta

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Re: Fucking stupid people shouldn't be in Parliament
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2012, 06:07:18 pm »
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There's no such thing as being against gay marriage but not discriminating.

I agree, but I think the point bob is making is sort of legitimate - in some ways I think it's detrimental to be overly aggressive towards people who hold views which might even be considered immoral.  When people are (to put it bluntly) mean or angry at you, it's hard for you to think rationally about why you're wrong or even comprehend rational arguments, even when the meanness is combined with a fair explanation for why the immorality might be the case.  I think, just as with anything, it's easier to learn when taught in a way that is not tinged with aggression: I've seen it myself, that people are much more likely to understand your perspective and even convert, if you simply approach them gently about things. 

On this line of analysis, it's probably worth mentioning that often people who don't appreciate that their views are immoral are not wilfully ignorant, or even completely close-minded.  If, however, you are aggressive in attacking these sorts of people, they are all the more likely to get defensive about where they stand and less likely to accept opposing beliefs, given that they come to associate said beliefs with anger, aggression, and in some cases even attacks which whilst not necessarily personal come across as such.  Again, a reasonable tone and gentleness is likely to come across better than hitting them on the head with a hammer; it's the same thing as teaching.

So following my own words, I'll do my best then to explain as calmly as possible why you can't be opposed to gay marriage without being discriminatory.  Marriage is an institution we celebrate because it provides a certain sense of symbolic and legal empowerment for people in dedicated relationships, right?  And we keep this in place because we endorse people being in said relationships, since that helps create families, helps people participate more securely as citizens in society (for some; usually the type who would choose marriage), etc. 

By extension then, the rejection of gay marriage is suggesting that first of all, we do not value homosexual relationships as being on the same level as straight ones.  This is problematic because:
a. At an initial level, it signals to said people that they are recognised by the state as an "other", whose sexual preferences cannot co-exist with a central concern (marriage) of society and
b. Perhaps more problematically, it does not really seem to be founded upon anything other than the fact that homosexuality is same-sex love (other arguments against gay marriage are usually built upon unsound premises, such as the idea that same-sex couples cannot raise families as well as heterosexual ones), and so we are basically just denying these people rights again based only on the idea of their sexual preferences. 

Hopefully this makes sense to people :)
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My name aint bob

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Re: Fucking stupid people shouldn't be in Parliament
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2012, 06:08:38 pm »
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There's no such thing as being against gay marriage but not discriminating.

I suppose from from a rigorous perspective your right.


What... you mean a segregated society? One which discriminates against people of different sexualities? Yeah sorry but if you're for that then you ARE an asshole.

I haven't stated what im for, because im trying to avoid a Gay marriage debate because that will go on forever with discussion, human rights, Biochemistry, Genetics ext. im trying to avoid all that because its not actually the point i was trying to make. im trying to say that regardless of peoples views, or the effects of them being put into practice, you should never go around verbally abusing people that disagree with you (debates and stuff sure, that's healthy communication). Are you going to say that your thoughts are worth more then anyone else? People can just get so caught up in attacking theoretical injustice that they become  inexcusable assholes to everyone else.
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ninwa

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Re: Fucking stupid people shouldn't be in Parliament
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2012, 06:15:49 pm »
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I'm saying I cannot imagine a decent person would have a "different view on where society should go" that does not include marriage equality.
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EvangelionZeta

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Re: Fucking stupid people shouldn't be in Parliament
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2012, 06:37:44 pm »
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I'm saying I cannot imagine a decent person would have a "different view on where society should go" that does not include marriage equality.

Ideally, but in practice the powers of forces such as community and family are often quite powerful.  Somebody who is otherwise a very decent person might be against gay marriage only because their staunchly anti-gay marriage parents have been raging against the television for years for suggesting it's a possibility.  That person needs somebody to talk to them reasonably and gently about why their opinion might be wrong, so that they can work it out for themselves and contribute constructively to the discussion about this; confronted with somebody else's anger (even if it is meant to be constructive), they are more likely to see the opposing perspective as an attack on their safety; they will retreat back to their families, the people who, no matter their beliefs, are subconsciously perceived as nurturing and caring figures.
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mark_alec

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Re: Fucking stupid people shouldn't be in Parliament
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2012, 07:12:54 pm »
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There's no such thing as being against gay marriage but not discriminating.
I'm not for same-sex marriage, but I do not discriminate. I am not for *any* state sanctioned marriages.

brenden

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Re: Fucking stupid people shouldn't be in Parliament
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2012, 07:20:42 pm »
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That's just being against marriage. Being against gay marriage lends itself to being for straight ones.
I'd also just like to point out; the whole bestiality argument was used back when interracial couples were illegal and marriage rights were being disgust.
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ninwa

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Re: Fucking stupid people shouldn't be in Parliament
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2012, 07:24:22 pm »
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EZ, I truly do respect you and your more gentle approach and I can see where you're coming from. I'm sure you can see why people like me are frustrated with the status quo though. People have been rationally and calmly telling these people for years why there is nothing wrong with gay marriage, and yet (as you know) the Bill was once again defeated today by a worryingly large majority. In my opinion it's time to start calling out these people for what they truly are.
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Re: Fucking stupid people shouldn't be in Parliament
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2012, 07:26:23 pm »
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by a worryingly large majority.

Really? where does this majority come from? i was under the impression that the majority of Australians supported gay marriage, at least overtly anyway.
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nacho

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Re: Fucking stupid people shouldn't be in Parliament
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2012, 07:33:10 pm »
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Personally I think this is a step forward for the gay community.

Now that people are being brought out to discuss why they think gay marriage should remain illegal, and defending it with such ridiculous ideas, the majority of the population will come to realise that gay marriage should be allowed.

Hurray for the gays! ~O_O~
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Genericname2365

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Re: Fucking stupid people shouldn't be in Parliament
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2012, 07:39:31 pm »
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EZ, I truly do respect you and your more gentle approach and I can see where you're coming from. I'm sure you can see why people like me are frustrated with the status quo though. People have been rationally and calmly telling these people for years why there is nothing wrong with gay marriage, and yet (as you know) the Bill was once again defeated today by a worryingly large majority. In my opinion it's time to start calling out these people for what they truly are.
Part of that large majority could be explained by the fact that the Liberals were instructed to all vote against the bill (as evidenced by Malcolm Turnbull voting it down), although something tells me not that many of them would have voted for it anyway. Admittedly not many in Labor voted for it as well, so you have a point.
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ninwa

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Re: Fucking stupid people shouldn't be in Parliament
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2012, 07:40:10 pm »
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Really? where does this majority come from? i was under the impression that the majority of Australians supported gay marriage, at least overtly anyway.

Bill was defeated today 98 to 42 http://www.scribd.com/doc/106321292/Same-Sex-Votes
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EvangelionZeta

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Re: Fucking stupid people shouldn't be in Parliament
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2012, 07:53:22 pm »
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EZ, I truly do respect you and your more gentle approach and I can see where you're coming from. I'm sure you can see why people like me are frustrated with the status quo though. People have been rationally and calmly telling these people for years why there is nothing wrong with gay marriage, and yet (as you know) the Bill was once again defeated today by a worryingly large majority. In my opinion it's time to start calling out these people for what they truly are.

Fair enough - I definitely do see where you're coming from, and in particular I can understand the anger being aimed directly at the people higher up, who perhaps are too old to change without some degree of force.  Maybe it's just the idealism in me though, but with the younger generation (the population of this forum), it might still be better to more gently sway people, whilst they are at the most critical stage of their intellectual development.  Maybe.

Or maybe balancing our two approaches produces a good cop/bad cop effect, and ends up being the most persuasive of all?  Haha.

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Part of that large majority could be explained by the fact that the Liberals were instructed to all vote against the bill (as evidenced by Malcolm Turnbull voting it down), although something tells me not that many of them would have voted for it anyway. Admittedly not many in Labor voted for it as well, so you have a point.

To be fair, the majority of Labor did vote in favour of it! http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/c0.0.386.386/p403x403/301164_10151197345125516_2056502894_n.jpg
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MonsieurHulot

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Re: Fucking stupid people shouldn't be in Parliament
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2012, 08:13:00 pm »
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Those results pose an interesting question: Would it be right for Labor not to allow a conscience vote, and force them to vote for the bill, coming a lot closer to winning than they did, or allow a conscience vote for all their members, thus losing by a wide margin?