The Culture within AN

[Water]

Hey ninatron, I think nacho has a fair point here. It's not whether you ban or not, it's that the aggressive arguing makes people fear that they will be banned. It's perception.

Don't actions speak louder than words? Has anyone ever been banned for dissenting to a religious opinion I've held? Regarding "aggressive arguing", being an admin does not preclude me from debating. I am wary that my position of "power" over regulary users could lead to an abuse of it, but it hasn't happened yet, and it's never going to.

This is simply imagined hyperbole that certain detractors of mine like to pedal. And yet, they will never be able to point to a single case of it happening ever.

Perception is a very powerful weapon, Enwiabe.

And it is something that ANYONE in position of power can inadvertantly wield strongly. The actions, the words and the acts of, Admins and Moderators, hold significant influence among junior members.

Who needs to actually feel they are going to be banned? When a knife is being driven down their throat? That is enough, and is almost akin to being banned.

[abeybaby]

no, only objective criticism of religion is valid. i cant look at buddhists and say buddhism is peaceful. i cant look at muslims and say islam is violent.
you can only make these judgements by reading the koran/hadith/bible/torah/whatever that religion is meant to be.\

I disagree completely, and the evidence is in my favour. Why do so many people react so differently to religion? It's because of their psychology and innate morality. That is what I'm concerned with.

The scriptures make supernatural claims which are entirely unverifiable. There is nothing much to be learned from them beyond the moral fabric of the time period in which they were written.

Why does one Christian want to shoot up an abortion clinic, and another want to hold a woman's hand as they go through the traumatic process?

So now tell me that the debate is about the objective "truth" of the religion, and not about how individual people react to it...

It is honestly trivial to show that the religious texts are worthless pages of empty babble. What we should all be concerned about is who is taking "stone homosexuals to death" literally, and why they believe it.

im actually super super happy with this - valid points, without aggressive personal attacks.

yes, people have innate morality, and no, scripture cant come out and set everyone straight.
of course religion is supernatural - if you accept that some almighty god exists, then of course its going to be supernatural. does that make it false? no.

why do people interpret things differently? i think many interpretations are simply wrong. with abortion:
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 1corinthians 3:16.
from a purely christian perspective, abortion is wrong. i dont think its possible to argue the opposite, and i find this to be true in many other moral cases.

so now, i will tell you what i told you before. religion should not be judged by what its followers do.

all the stoning and killing and murder is in the old testament - which is no longer applicable and exists to show the contrast between before salvation and after. that is universally understood, which is why no sane person would stone anybody else in the name of christianity.

[pi]

Hey ninatron, I think nacho has a fair point here. It's not whether you ban or not, it's that the aggressive arguing makes people fear that they will be banned. It's perception.

I agree with this, and to what nacho was alluding too somewhat flamboyantly on the previous page. Not all users are as strong as others to go against a force they know they'll be hammered by.

Everyone just needs to take a step back when religious threads and the like appear, because it isn't a good look for the site and it's leaders and senior members (not just admins and mods here) when it becomes a "who can bag the shit out of who better". As I said before, tolerance shouldn't be hard.

As for being being banned, none have occurred in recent times, but users have deleted their accounts following such threads. And in all honesty, that sends the same message.

[thushan]

@thushan and nacho, no I do not agree. If you go back to my posts from when I was a new member you'll see I had no problems calling out enwiabe or other mods when they deserved it. I am not going to stop expressing my opinions because some unspecified member (you never provide any proof of this) has an irrational fear of being banned. Spend just a couple of days here and anyone will realise the level of moderation is very laissez-faire. The only person I can think of was that random dude in the teachers strikes thread who threw a hissy fit because his views got challenged. It was a login from the UoM IP and I'm pretty sure he's still around as a member. Most people "delete" their accounts as some sign of protest when they actually make another one straight afterwards.

Hmm. I guess that the dysphemism in your arguing would come naturally when you feel really strongly about the issue...fair enough. Still, though, the perception is there. And it's real. And it should be addressed. And not everyone is fearless in their arguing.

Perhaps we want to make it clear, somehow, that people are free to voice their opinions and whilst we may disagree with them, sometimes vociferously, we will not ban them because of their opinions. I think if we are firm in that stance and SAY it (you're already showing this, but its hard to notice coz its harder to notice someone NOT doing something as opposed to someone DOING something) as well as do it, then I think this fear might be allayed, at least somewhat.

[Soul_Khan]

I love the fact that when the admins/moderators go off-topic it's okay but when us regular users go off-topic, instant thread lock.

[ninwa]

As for being being banned, none have occurred in recent times, but users have deleted their accounts following such threads. And in all honesty, that sends the same message.

Every one of those people have come back and made new accounts almost immediately. Take from that what you will

[pi]

I love the fact that when the admins/moderators go off-topic it's okay but when us regular users go off-topic, instant thread lock.

Sounds like "admins/mods vs users" again! Isn't that related to the AN culture? Something that this thread is addressing

[Bhootnike]

It's stemmed off into an important discussion which I am sure many members would have liked to have seen. Well, i'm glad anyways its being discussed. matter needs to be dealt with


JOBE WATSONNNNN YOU SEXY MONKEY!

[thushan]

They're making a statement.

Anyways SoulKhan - this thread I think is still on-topic (with a few off-topic posts that are benign), we are talking about the idea of power, respect and opinions in debates on AN and the culture pertaining to it.

[Greatness]

I think generally a lot of people are pretty nice and it's great that we're all helping each other out. BUT, there are those with greater 'authority' who may make a very valid point and counter arguments which is totally fine especially in debates, but the way they articulate themselves can be very aggressive and if I were one of the people on the other end of it, I don't think I'd be feeling too good.

Also, since you guys are in the a position where you're 'above' others I believe that some users are less inclined to post about specific topics or voicing their opinions particularly if you shoot them down straight away. So what? Someone has an opinion, get over it. You've probably said something before and a majority of people disagreed with it...

100% honesty, if someone tries to pick out what I said and turn it against me then fuck it I'm over this site. It's a very resourceful site and great learning tool, but somethings that are said on the forums are at times unnecessary and inappropriate.

I hope you will take something positive out of this and perhaps think twice before posting next time in a heated conversation.

[ninwa]

Perhaps we want to make it clear, somehow, that people are free to voice their opinions and whilst we may disagree with them, sometimes vociferously, we will not ban them because of their opinions. I think if we are firm in that stance and SAY it (you're already showing this, but its hard to notice coz its harder to notice someone NOT doing something as opposed to someone DOING something) as well as do it, then I think this fear might be allayed, at least somewhat.

Done. Under "Bans" in the forum rules. Now people can stop bringing this up.

[slothpomba]

I'd just like to comment on how ironic it is that abes22 had no shortage of likes to give the recent facebook statuses I made that were critical of Islam.

I guess what you're really trying to say is that we should all be very sensitive about Christianity. Other religions? Nah, no need. They're not the "one true religion".

The hypocrisy of your double standard is utterly astounding.

Since i've defended both religions(i'm an atheist too, just not the same kind), i might be able to comment in your eyes then.

I've had a lot of people PM me (probably because i was defending their beliefs) who have been quite upset and this stretches all the way back to when i was a very new member (going on about 4 years ago now). In addition to causing a lot of emotional pain for people, these threads have even caused a few people to out and out leave. It's not confined to one person causing the injury either. A lot of the group think or herd mentality has a significant influence too.

It's not just one bad thread either. It's been happening as long as i've been here. It's far from a minor issue, its toxic.

Awhile back, i was involved in a huge argument with the admin team over even allowing religious discussion since it almost always seems to degrade into such a toxic and vile shitheap. I know, free speech, blah blah but it always sinks so, so, low on both sides, too.

This is a VCE and educational website and company first and foremost, we shouldn't have people leaving because of this. Worse still, we shouldn't have people feeling unwelcome or attacked by the senior people on this forum, if a user attacks you, you go to the admins, what do you do if the admins attack you?

I'm with Water on this one, if someone is causing harm to others, I see no need to descend to their level. Show them the rule book and show them the bannhammer, but there is no need to feed their hate and ruining your own reputation by being a hot-head and responding to them on their level.

I concur, insults are never warranted. We should always show the best conduct and not sink to the worst level.

Since we're on the topic of religion, maybe a little section from the Dhammapada:

Who bears within them enmity:
"He has abused and beaten me,
defeated me and plundered me",
hate is not allayed for them.

Who bears within no enmity:
"He has abused and beaten me,
defeated me and plundered me",
hate is quite allayed for them.

Never here by enmity
are those with enmity allayed,
they are allayed by amity,
this is the timeless Truth.

[Hard to read the first time, here are some explanations from the web

1. Explanation: When a person holds that he was insulted, assaulted, defeated, or robbed, his anger continues to increase. The anger such a person has no way of subsiding. The more he goes over his imaginary trouble the greater becomes his desire to avenge it.

2.Explanation:  Living in human society, people often quarrel with one another. When such conflicts occur, people often keep thinking about the wrongs done to them by others. When that happens, their anger tends to grow. But in those who forgive and forget the wrongs done to them, anger quickly vanishes. They are then at peace.

3.Explanation: Those who attempt to conquer hatred by hatred are like warriors who take weapons to overcome others who bear arms. This does not end hatred, but gives it room to grow. But, ancient wisdom has advocated a different timeless strategy to overcome hatred. This eternal wisdom is to meet hatred with non-hatred. The method is of overcoming hatred through non-hatred is eternally effective. That is why that method is described as eternal wisdom.]

[pi]

Hey ninatron, I think nacho has a fair point here. It's not whether you ban or not, it's that the aggressive arguing makes people fear that they will be banned. It's perception.

Don't actions speak louder than words? Has anyone ever been banned for dissenting to a religious opinion I've held? Regarding "aggressive arguing", being an admin does not preclude me from debating.

There's a difference between "debating" (which is constructive) and the "aggressive arguing" (which is discouraging for new users and results in locks/bans/insult-throwing).

Threads need to be more of the former, atm most are of the latter. Toning it down isn't that hard.

And it is something that ANYONE in position of power can inadvertantly wield strongly. The actions, the words and the acts of, Admins and Moderators, hold significant influence among junior members.

Who needs to actually feel they are going to be banned? When a knife is being driven down their throat? That is enough, and is almost akin to being banned.

+1, it's very discouraging.

[MJRomeo81]

Religious people are spoken to on this forum like they have some sort of intellectual disability. It's common nature on AN that religion is just a bunch of tales. I couldn't care what other people's beliefs are, but it gets tiring really quickly to have to read these smart ass comments about religion in countless threads.

Sure, if someone makes a post promoting their own beliefs then there is every right for another person to challenge their claims. But sometimes the ignorance on this board is ridiculous.

I'm pretty sure if someone blatantly criticized another person for being homosexual then there would be some sort of ban/moderating.

[thushan]

Perhaps we want to make it clear, somehow, that people are free to voice their opinions and whilst we may disagree with them, sometimes vociferously, we will not ban them because of their opinions. I think if we are firm in that stance and SAY it (you're already showing this, but its hard to notice coz its harder to notice someone NOT doing something as opposed to someone DOING something) as well as do it, then I think this fear might be allayed, at least somewhat.

Done. Under "Bans" in the forum rules. Now people can stop bringing this up.

Good on you Nina.

I know this must be exasperating (this is the last time I will mention this) but I also think what you wrote in the forum rules regarding opinions and debates should also be written on the main board of Rants and Debate - because (correct me if I'm wrong) many people may not read the forum rules cover to cover - and we want to make our position clear and make sure people are aware of it.