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May 06, 2025, 01:02:57 am

Author Topic: Jill Meagher's Disappearance Poses Some Interesting Questions to Discuss  (Read 23321 times)  Share 

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ShortBlackChick

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Re: Jill Meagher's Disappearance Poses Some Interesting Questions to Discuss
« Reply #60 on: September 28, 2012, 09:16:14 pm »
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I think the point my parents were getting at, is that it could have been avoided were she not alone at that time of the night. Obviously we can get to the what if's and could of's and should haves, to begin with the existance of the horrible creature who committed such a crime in the first place, but I guess the fact of the matter is that it could have been avoided were she with someone. I think thats coming from the view of someone who has a daughter. It could have been been anyone, but if that anyone had someone with them, it could have been averted. Perhaps in this day and age its just naive to think that you can walk around at night alone. Even your neighbours or people in your neighborhood may not be who you think they are. Its just realistic that an idealistic, perfect world doesnt exist and sometimes perhaps a bit of paranoia and pessimism is required to survive. Having said that I would have done the same, dont find an issue with walking around by myself at night, not that I do it alot, but I guess a bit of caution has entered my mind now, due to this unfortunate and horrible story. In the perspective of young women, sometimes the streets at any time of the day its just not safe and women have to acknowledge that I guess, which is sad enough as it is.
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Eriny

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Re: Jill Meagher's Disappearance Poses Some Interesting Questions to Discuss
« Reply #61 on: September 28, 2012, 10:07:23 pm »
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If you consider that most rapists are people quite familiar with their victims (this and other incidents like this being for the most part exceptions) then is it the victims fault if they find themselves alone in the same room as a man?

Further, regardless of reality, it is absurd to say its her fault. You can say that she shouldn't have been out at night alone but that's quite different. The idea that you should expect to get raped if you're out at night alone is incredibly unjust.

We're always telling women 'don't get raped' but we don't tell men 'don't rape'. It's ridiculously sexist.

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Re: Jill Meagher's Disappearance Poses Some Interesting Questions to Discuss
« Reply #62 on: September 29, 2012, 01:17:19 am »
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Is it true that if someone breaks into your house, you can't use force to subdue them? I remember once a few years back, one of our neighbours were broken into while they were out. And they complained about the police saying "not using force" or something

Can a criminal sue you for breaking a bone of theirs?

That is stupid. They must consider all risks before deciding to break into a house.
I'm not fully sure on whether or not the law has changed, but there was a case a while back in which a man shot a robber in his house and was let off.
Similarly, it's legal to use reasonable force in the belief that you're about to be harmed. Eg, you're backed up against a wall and someone has his fists up saying "I'm gonna knock your fucking block off" - you're within your rights to hit him first (usually once) and run away. If you weren't against a wall though it would be hard to justify the use of force instead of running.
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Re: Jill Meagher's Disappearance Poses Some Interesting Questions to Discuss
« Reply #63 on: September 29, 2012, 01:59:09 am »
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Is it true that if someone breaks into your house, you can't use force to subdue them? I remember once a few years back, one of our neighbours were broken into while they were out. And they complained about the police saying "not using force" or something

Can a criminal sue you for breaking a bone of theirs?

That is stupid. They must consider all risks before deciding to break into a house.
I'm not fully sure on whether or not the law has changed, but there was a case a while back in which a man shot a robber in his house and was let off.
Similarly, it's legal to use reasonable force in the belief that you're about to be harmed. Eg, you're backed up against a wall and someone has his fists up saying "I'm gonna knock your fucking block off" - you're within your rights to hit him first (usually once) and run away. If you weren't against a wall though it would be hard to justify the use of force instead of running.

I'm no lawyer (far far from it), but afaik, unless it's self defense, you *could* be sued. But this is based off hearsay and my own inferences from news stories.

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Re: Jill Meagher's Disappearance Poses Some Interesting Questions to Discuss
« Reply #64 on: September 29, 2012, 10:24:37 am »
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Is it true that if someone breaks into your house, you can't use force to subdue them? I remember once a few years back, one of our neighbours were broken into while they were out. And they complained about the police saying "not using force" or something

Can a criminal sue you for breaking a bone of theirs? 

That is stupid. They must consider all risks before deciding to break into a house.
I'm not fully sure on whether or not the law has changed, but there was a case a while back in which a man shot a robber in his house and was let off.
Similarly, it's legal to use reasonable force in the belief that you're about to be harmed. Eg, you're backed up against a wall and someone has his fists up saying "I'm gonna knock your fucking block off" - you're within your rights to hit him first (usually once) and run away. If you weren't against a wall though it would be hard to justify the use of force instead of running.

I'm no lawyer (far far from it), but afaik, unless it's self defense, you *could* be sued. But this is based off hearsay and my own inferences from news stories.


What about the mental aspect of it? You see a stranger in your house and sometimes it's the person's natural instinct to use physical violence?  ???
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Re: Jill Meagher's Disappearance Poses Some Interesting Questions to Discuss
« Reply #65 on: September 29, 2012, 10:29:40 am »
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If you weren't against a wall though it would be hard to justify the use of force instead of running.

And I don't get this.
The person has broken into YOUR house.
Are we all going to sit meekly and let someone steal stuff?
Why in the world should the home-owner run? Why?

Take out the cricket bat and hit him for six should be the response.



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Re: Jill Meagher's Disappearance Poses Some Interesting Questions to Discuss
« Reply #66 on: September 29, 2012, 10:52:12 am »
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...and then get charged for assault :P

ASIDE: oft quoted story, not sure if true, if true, probably happened in the US. Robber robs a house, trips over stairs, sues home owners. Wins the house.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 10:54:03 am by dilmah »
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Re: Jill Meagher's Disappearance Poses Some Interesting Questions to Discuss
« Reply #67 on: September 29, 2012, 02:37:26 pm »
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If you weren't against a wall though it would be hard to justify the use of force instead of running.

And I don't get this.
The person has broken into YOUR house.
Are we all going to sit meekly and let someone steal stuff?
Why in the world should the home-owner run? Why?

Take out the cricket bat and hit him for six should be the response.
Haha sorry this was pertaining to my example if you were in an alley or something similar and I meant in an urban environment, if you were just on the footpath and not backed up against a wall.

"I'm not fully sure on whether or not the law has changed, but there was a case a while back in which a man shot a robber in his house and was let off."
Was intended to answer your question.
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Re: Jill Meagher's Disappearance Poses Some Interesting Questions to Discuss
« Reply #68 on: September 29, 2012, 04:38:14 pm »
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Yes, it is our right to be able to walk the streets alone and not be attacked, but in too many instances incidents have happened when the outcome is a little scary.

It's never the fault of the person it happens to of course, such a horrible thing should never happen to anyone.

I think it's still sensible and important to take precautions and not throw common sense out the window either. In this case, she was on a public street, in full view of people, it was a totally brazen attack.

Even as a bloke though, there are some areas of melbourne i wouldn't go down alone. A lot of the people here seem to be pretty well off in general but there are some real dodgy suburbs around melbourne. I've had friends who have seen a guy get the shit beat out of him for no reason in sunshine (nice name, bad place). I've had mates that have been mugged walking home alone after a night out, granted through a dodgy suburb, on the same route i used to walk home on (going for something with a bit more lights, not that most people would do anything). Hell, i've even had friends that have been smacked with guns before (they weren't into anything dodgy either, wrong place wrong time).

If i walked down the places i knew were dodgy, alone, late at night, it isn't my fault they decide to take my wallet and i should be able to walk anywhere i want but it's probably not a good idea to go down there either.

It should never happen and it's definitely wrong but everyone should still be vigilant and take thought into what they're doing (again, this case is sad, theres nothing she could of done, she was on a busy road, i'm surprised someone didn't stop).

And what's more, WHY do people become rapists? WHY do people become murderers? I personally believe that these things should start being treated as treatable mental illnesses. We have to be careful here though. If we associate mental illness with "murder" and "rape," in that murderers and rapists will most likely have a mental illness (namely psycopathy or sociopathy), we have to be absolutely crystal clear that the converse does not hold. That is, mental illness of any sort does not imply psychopathy/sociopathy/rape/murder. And we don't want to drag down the connotations of mental illness like this because there are other illnesses that MUST not be treated so harshly, particularly depression.

I agree with a lot of what you said. Our model of justice is based on centuries old ideas of retribution, punishment and just locking people up.

I also agree with you on some level. It's not normal behaviour to kill other people, especially in a pre-meditated fashion, you've gotta be somewhat mentally unwell to be a serial killer and be able to take human lives time after time like that.

On the other-hand, i don't think we should associate every crime with a mental illness. The most popular diagnostic criteria continue to become more and more broad, casting a wider and wider net. Where would we stop as well? Would you say thieves have some kind of mental illness or are just opportunistic greedy assholes, at least some of the time? You could argue they have a mental illness but i think then we're implying there is a very, very normative narrow state that every human being must fit. If people aren't exactly like me or my ethics, they could have a mental illness.

There are plenty of drug dealers who know full well what they're doing and still do it for the profits, they're not necessarily mentally ill either. Human trafficking could be another example here.

I was watching an episode of cops one day and this lady hired a hitman (little did she know it was an undercover cop) to kill her husband because she wanted his money. She seemed relatively normal to me or at least able to think and control her thought processes and she did it anyway.

Whilst it's a totally seperate thing and i'm not comparing them at all, it wasn't too long ago that people thought being homosexual was almost a mental illness of some kind. We have to be very careful in creating narrow definitions of whats normal and what is mentally ill.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 04:58:25 pm by kingpomba »

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Re: Jill Meagher's Disappearance Poses Some Interesting Questions to Discuss
« Reply #69 on: September 29, 2012, 06:04:09 pm »
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We're always telling women 'don't get raped' but we don't tell men 'don't rape'. It's ridiculously sexist.

Actually, there's an entire government campaign specifically designed to discourage men from hurting women. It's the "Violence against women - Australia says no" ads.

But I see what you're trying to say. Whenever I go on Facebook and see a post about this incident with a message saying "let this be a warning to all women" or something along those lines, I get pretty frustrated. No-one should have to live in fear amongst the streets of their own neighbourhood. There is no "lesson" for women to learn. Instead, we should show images of the man in court and say "let this be a lesson to all men".
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Re: Jill Meagher's Disappearance Poses Some Interesting Questions to Discuss
« Reply #70 on: September 29, 2012, 06:07:56 pm »
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^The way I see what the govt is trying to do(and I acknowledge the sexism) is that they think it's easier to prevent women going out at this hour etc rather than prevent crazy men from committing such atrocities. It's got some merit, because govt ads etc are more likely going to impact the women rather than the crazy males who do these crimes.

Having said that, my personal opinion is that the govt definitely needs to tackle the upstream issue of the males committing these horrendous crimes.

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Re: Jill Meagher's Disappearance Poses Some Interesting Questions to Discuss
« Reply #71 on: September 29, 2012, 09:17:31 pm »
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^The way I see what the govt is trying to do(and I acknowledge the sexism) is that they think it's easier to prevent women going out at this hour etc rather than prevent crazy men from committing such atrocities. It's got some merit, because govt ads etc are more likely going to impact the women rather than the crazy males who do these crimes.

Having said that, my personal opinion is that the govt definitely needs to tackle the upstream issue of the males committing these horrendous crimes.
Definitely. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/dont-be-that-guy-ad-campaign-cuts-vancouver-sex-assaults-by-10-per-cent-in-2011/article1359241/
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Re: Jill Meagher's Disappearance Poses Some Interesting Questions to Discuss
« Reply #72 on: September 29, 2012, 09:20:58 pm »
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I reckon a good campaign slogan could be "Don't be a prick."

You English Media Analysis students, feel free to analyse the hell out of this. Note the use of the contraction, the short simple sentence structure and imperative sentence type, and the use of the expletive.
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Re: Jill Meagher's Disappearance Poses Some Interesting Questions to Discuss
« Reply #73 on: September 29, 2012, 09:25:23 pm »
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There is no "lesson" for women to learn. Instead, we should show images of the man in court and say "let this be a lesson to all men".

No we shouldn't, that's just going to create another problem, except with men in the firing line rather than women

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Re: Jill Meagher's Disappearance Poses Some Interesting Questions to Discuss
« Reply #74 on: September 29, 2012, 09:27:34 pm »
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There is no "lesson" for women to learn. Instead, we should show images of the man in court and say "let this be a lesson to all men".

No we shouldn't, that's just going to create another problem, except with men in the firing line rather than women
Could you elaborate, Russ Thomas?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 09:32:54 pm by brenden »
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