First of all and very importantly, lets all try to play real, real nice so this doesn't get locked like all the other ones, it could actually be a good discussion. I also realise this is rather long but i did put a fair bit of time into writing it and i think you won't regret reading it. I tried to make it interesting and not too dry.
The IssueHere's the thing, it's an extremely complex issue.
Only the most rigid and immovable ideologues on either side want to see the
total abolition of Palestine or
the total abolition of Israel. While extreme, those two views aren't overly complex to execute or to think about, most people on either of these far positions agree on the ultimate aim.
That's not the problem. The problem is the views of most people lie somewhere in the middle, most people are the shades of grey, they are white nor black. The middle is where it gets complex and it is where the people who hold these views
can't agree over the ultimate end (besides something obviously as abstract or pop-songesq as "
Peace for all").
Putting aside the questionable motives and desires of people on the extremes,
almost everyone else does want peace of some kind, there are huge disagreements on how to achieve it. This isn't an abstract thought experiment or a game of
Civilization. The negotiations are intense, each side obviously acts to derive maximal benefit for themselves and the interest they represent. No one likes to see war or children dying but don't ignore the fact that something like this is an absolutely huge and complex undertaking. Who should govern Palestine? Fatah or Hamas? Someone else? What if the current party elected (or in the future) in Israel takes things down or up a notch? Organising the actual things that need to happen on the ground and in practice as opposed to idealistic vision is very complex, this is one of the reasons
we do need to think about it carefully and
we do need to take our time.When you are begging to say things like "Because i am a Zionist....i believe in xxx or want xxx" "Because i am on the left...yyy should happen" "As an arab muslim or jew you should support zzz"
you know you are in trouble. You should look at it and decide it based on its own
merits,
evidence and
what you think, not simply because of
what you are. There are many people on the left or right or of one religion or another supporting it simply because thats what people like them do and go out and chant the various catchy slogans and ideas echoed by these sides.
It's clear both sides have done bad things. For the kid who lays slain by a rocket, it hardly matters if it was
Palestine or
Israel that did it. Everyone needs to acknowledge no matter how much you hate or love Israel or Palestine, they have both done bad things, as much as our mind and psychology is begging us to, we can't boil it down to good and bad. That's why organisations like Amnesty international are important, they point out and critcise the things that Israel has done but they also point out the things Palestine has done, more objective than most, they actually care about the lives on the ground rather than either side (as i said, it hardly matters to the dead how they died). I think it would be greatly beneficial for each side to be a little more like this.
I don't think
we should just blindly accept anything the UN says as truth or the absolute high standard of morality. They are a bunch of fallible human beings collected, with the same biases, motivations, bodies and brains we all have. I don't see why their idea should be worth any more or less simply because it has a UN rubber stamp on it. They've had numerous failings in their history and i doubt you'd be quoting them if they put out something contrary to
your view either.
Violence and actionLoaded words, propaganda and just generally toying with your emotions all come in here.
To many of us in the west, Hamas are
terrorists.
Terrorists are bad, they're despicable, they're scary and they just dont like you.
To many in the Arab and Islamic world though, they have a very different picture, they aren't terrorist, they're
freedom fighters trying to overthrow (according to them) a brutal and oppressive regime.
It's difficult to think of good examples because here in the west we have often been on the winning side, after-all, history is written by the victors.
Consider the
French resistance fighting against
Nazi occupation. We swell with pride; it fills us with hope about freedom, heroics and the indomitable human spirit. They were fundamentally good.
To us, laying down their lives in a suicidal attack was the ultimate sacrifice for freedom, for what is good and what is right. Blowing up Nazi military depots or Nazi buildings was the right and necessary thing.
What if we were on the other side of history though? Imagine what they would be if the Nazi's got to write the history books or you were on the side of Nazi Germany at the time.
They are
terrorists. They are scary. They hate all your values and the greater good you are trying to achieve. They are so deranged in what they believe, they are willing to risk themselves to the point of being psychotically suicidal. They violently and brutally attack buildings belonging to their people in the pursuit of their filthy and hateful vision.
I haven't written about two different groups here, i wrote about the same group from both sides. It was fairly easy to cause that emotional change too and i'm no master of propaganda.
To further ram it home a little, here is a paragraph or two from a particular book to get you to think:
Last Resort
Winston loved his country. It hurt him deeply to see its people oppressed by the Nazi occupiers. But after the German defeat of the British army in the slaughter of Dunkirk, and America's decision to stay out of the war, it was only a matter of time before Britain became part of the Third Reich.
Now the situation looked hopeless. Hitler faced no international opposition and the British resistance was ill equipped and weak. Many, like Winston, had come to the conclusion that there was no way they could defeat the Germans. But by being a constant source of irritation and forcing them to divert precious resources to crushing the uprising, it was hoped that, sooner or later, Hitler would realise occupying Britain was more trouble than it was worth and would withdraw.
Winston was far from convinced the plan would work, but it was their last resort. The major problem, however, was that it was so difficult to strike in ways which would cause the regime serious problems. That is why they had reluctantly agreed that the only effective and reliable method was for the resistance fighters to turn themselves into human bombs, so that their own sacrifices caused maximum disruption and terror. They were all prepared to die for Britain. They just wanted to make sure their deaths made a difference.
It's clear almost all of us support what the French resistance did or people standing up, even with armed struggle, against oppressive governments.
The problem is perception though. While many people support the French resistance efforts against an oppressive government, many in the west do not support the supposedly terrorist efforts of Hamas against what they perceive to be the same thing. Many people view Hamas in the same way we view the French resistance.
I don't think i know enough about the specifics of the issue yet to pass specific judgment either way but it's certainly food for thought.
PeopleI'm more interested in you talking about what you think rather than quoting what the UN says, if we all wanted to read what the UN thought then we'd go out and find that. We're putting our views and metaphorical neck on the block and so should you. You haven't defined what you think
Zionism is and what exactly is wrong with it. Most of your quotations are about supposed crimes or war crimes committed by Israel. You could do that without being a Zionist. Likewise, you can be a Zionist and a pacifist, it all depends on your definitions.
Regardless of what happened 50 years ago or what you think should happen or any nice moralistic vision, we have to deal with reality. There is chunk of land in the middle east, filled with people. Many of these people on this chunk of land are Jewish. While the people who first came over may or may not be personally culpable for some kind of invasion or displacing Palestinians or a non-violent (mostly) form of ethnic cleansing by taking over land and inhabiting it is frankly mostly irrelevant to today.
The fact of the matter is that these people are here now. It may not be the actual homeland (in the sense of growing up there) of many of the people
that came but the passage of time since is such that many generations have passed. For many of the Jewish people in Israel, they were born there.
It is their home. It's all they know. They didn't ask to be born there and no one should be punished for their parents choices. It just seems like a fundamental property of natural justice.
The parents, grand-parents, great-grandparents, etc came from many places. Russia, Germany and so on. Places with a unique culture and identity. This is all true. However, time came to pass where children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren grew up in the land of Israel, they had a unique identity distinct from the German or Russian one of their ancestors,
they had an Israeli identity,
they were fundamentally Israeli's. Imagine the scandal if i told 2nd, 3rd or 4th generation people of Asian or African descent in Australia that this is not their homeland, this is not their place, they are not one of us and they should boot it. It's the same idea at work here.
If your idea of opposing Zionism is
denying that these people after generations have a fundamental identity unique to Israel, then you are quite clearly denying a truth. Likewise, if you think these people should leave the land that has
become their home and is all they know, i think you are asking for something not only absurd but hateful.
The idealism and theory of it is quite different from the reality. The reality is that these people have a unique Israeli identity and they didn't choose to be born there.
It's their home as much as anyones. I think they deserve and have a right to a home in the land of Israel. I think
very much the same is true for the Palestinians, they didn't ask to be born there and they have (despite the trying conditions) forged their own unique identity and culture. For a few people these are starkly contradictory views but i think for most, once you realise it, it's just common sense. Both are true.
I don't hold much regard for the view that just because you are Jewish you are
entitled to take someone else's land or because you had a supposed
covenant with God, you can annex part of a place. If thats what you truly regard as Zionism and something you think isn't right, i agree with you there. The time for arguing over this has
long gone though. We have to be pragmatic and practical. As i said above, there are millions and millions of Citizens of Israel who show no signs of simply wanting to up and leave. Despite the motivations or the morality of getting there in the first place, the fact of the matter is the descendants of these people do have a right to be there. We have to work within the framework of both these things.
Anything else is either delusion or self-deception and won't solve a damn thing.
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