Zionism

[JellyDonut]

Wait, so if the hospital wasn't there, an air strike would be okay?

Israel actively drops pamphlets and alerts people before they initiate an air-strike in set location in gaza order to minimize causalities .

How nice of them

[enwiabe]

Wait, so if the hospital wasn't there, an air strike would be okay?

Israel actively drops pamphlets and alerts people before they initiate an air-strike in set location in gaza order to minimize causalities .

How nice of them

An air strike on a terrorist leader? Why not?

[JellyDonut]

Wait, so if the hospital wasn't there, an air strike would be okay?

Israel actively drops pamphlets and alerts people before they initiate an air-strike in set location in gaza order to minimize causalities .

How nice of them

An air strike on a terrorist leader? Why not?

The area is densely populated and an air strike is hardly what I would consider precise. In fact, I'd say its more indiscriminate than anything

[enwiabe]

Wait, so if the hospital wasn't there, an air strike would be okay?

Israel actively drops pamphlets and alerts people before they initiate an air-strike in set location in gaza order to minimize causalities .

How nice of them

An air strike on a terrorist leader? Why not?

The area is densely populated and an air strike is hardly what I would consider precise. In fact, I'd say its more indiscriminate than anything

Except that Israel is consistently hitting the targets...

I agree, it's a very morally difficult situation to navigate. But what do you do? Do you let Hamas just grow and grow and strengthen their bases so they can make it rain qassams on Tel Aviv as much as they please?

[CaiTheHuman]

Wait, so if the hospital wasn't there, an air strike would be okay?

Israel actively drops pamphlets and alerts people before they initiate an air-strike in set location in gaza order to minimize causalities .

How nice of them

An air strike on a terrorist leader? Why not?

The area is densely populated and an air strike is hardly what I would consider precise. In fact, I'd say its more indiscriminate than anything

There is no such thing as Moral Symmetry with Hamas, they consistently fire rockets into densely populated areas. Disrupting the livelihoods of millions of Israelis living in Southern Israel. What do you expect Israel to do. Israel has exercised considerable restraint over years, copping thousands and thousands of rockets being fired by Hamas. In it's attempts to preserve it's international reputation.

Hamas Attacks have been far more indiscriminate, they aim to wreck havoc on Innocent Israeli Civilians. The I.D.F is merely aiming to disable or reduce the military capacity Hamas has in firing rockets into Israel . Israel has a moral obligation to defend it's from a Terroist Organization otherwise known as Hamas.  We have seen how Hamas military hardware has grown , with rockets/missiles being able to reach Tel Aviv.

[pi]

Israel has exercised considerable restraint over years

This is restraint?

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2012-11-23-vpviolencetimeline20121123_0.png

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/869666/thumbs/o-ISRAEL-WEAPONS-ARSENAL-900.jpg?4

[JellyDonut]

Except that Israel is consistently hitting the targets...

I agree, it's a very morally difficult situation to navigate. But what do you do? Do you let Hamas just grow and grow and strengthen their bases so they can make it rain qassams on Tel Aviv as much as they please?

So did the recent strikes all 'hit their targets'?

I agree that a proper moral answer is difficult to formulate but that's why its up for discussion. No, but I'd expect a nation with an incredibly effective intelligence agency and a ludicrous amount of military aid to exercise some discretion.

There is no such thing as Moral Symmetry with Hamas, they consistently fire rockets into densely populated areas. Disrupting the livelihoods of millions of Israelis living in Southern Israel. What do you expect Israel to do. Israel has exercised considerable restraint over years, copping thousands and thousands of rockets being fired by Hamas. In it's attempts to preserve it's international reputation.

Hamas Attacks have been far more indiscriminate, they aim to wreck havoc on Innocent Israeli Civilians. The I.D.F is merely aiming to disable or reduce the military capacity Hamas has in firing rockets into Israel . Israel has a moral obligation to defend it's from a Terroist Organization otherwise known as Hamas.  We have seen how Hamas military hardware has grown , with rockets/missiles being able to reach Tel Aviv.

You're doing it again. What Hamas does, does not in any way validate the IDF's actions. If Israel were exercising restraint, then you'd have a hard time in explaining illegal settlements, the Sabra and Shatila incident, Operation Cast Lead etc. A moral obligation to defend does not include excessive retaliatory attacks on known civilian areas. If Hamas military hardware has grown, then an improvement on the iron dome is warranted, not to launch more attacks.

I'm also done here so you guys can have the last word

[paulsterio]

Israel has a moral obligation to defend it's from a Terroist Organization otherwise known as Hamas.

Hamas is not a terrorist organisation, you get nowhere by labelling other groups as terrorist organisations, just because they are of different people to you and just because they stand for different causes doesn't mean that they are a terrorist organisation.

To many people, Hamas are freedom fighters who are fighting to get back land that (according to them) they rightfully own.

Resolving disputes requires both sides to understand the motives of each other and accept that both their motives are understandable and reasonable. To call a party a terrorist organisation is just inciting hatred and not assisting others to understand why Hamas do what they do. This will never assist to resolve the current situation in Gaza.

[CaiTheHuman]

Except that Israel is consistently hitting the targets...

I agree, it's a very morally difficult situation to navigate. But what do you do? Do you let Hamas just grow and grow and strengthen their bases so they can make it rain qassams on Tel Aviv as much as they please?

So did the recent strikes all 'hit their targets'?

No, but I'd expect a nation with an incredibly effective intelligence agency and a ludicrous amount of military aid to exercise some discretion.

There is no such thing as Moral Symmetry with Hamas, they consistently fire rockets into densely populated areas. Disrupting the livelihoods of millions of Israelis living in Southern Israel. What do you expect Israel to do. Israel has exercised considerable restraint over years, copping thousands and thousands of rockets being fired by Hamas. In it's attempts to preserve it's international reputation.

Hamas Attacks have been far more indiscriminate, they aim to wreck havoc on Innocent Israeli Civilians. The I.D.F is merely aiming to disable or reduce the military capacity Hamas has in firing rockets into Israel . Israel has a moral obligation to defend it's from a Terroist Organization otherwise known as Hamas.  We have seen how Hamas military hardware has grown , with rockets/missiles being able to reach Tel Aviv.

You're doing it again. What Hamas does, does not in any way validate the IDF's actions. If Israel were exercising restraint, then you'd have a hard time in explaining illegal settlements, the Sabra and Shatila incident, Operation Cast Lead etc. A moral obligation to defend does not include excessive retaliatory attacks on known civilian areas. If Hamas military has grown, then an improvement on the iron dome is warranted, not to launch more attacks.

Israel has been exercising restraint in regards to Hamas firing Rockets into Southern Israel. 4000 to 5000 rockets have been fired into Israel since Operation Cast Lead. And it is not excessive retaliatory attacks . Hamas chose to set up base and  use civilians as shields when firing Rockets into Israel. It is their liability and their faultif they choose to put their people in such danger. Israel aims to stop/reduce the incidents of  these rockets from being fired into Israel. And time and time has warned civilians to evacuate surrounding areas before launching a strike on set location. An improvement on the Iron Dome will do nothing to sufficiently ward of these rocket attacks. Have you seen the tactics the Hamas militants are using now to avoid getting into the radius of the Iron Dome. They have no morality in their actions and should be condemned. Destroying and seriously inhibiting their ability to launch rocket attacks will ensure that the Citizens living in Southern Israel are able to live their lives normally as they can. Considering how Normal living in Southern Israel is.

This is restraint?

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2012-11-23-vpviolencetimeline20121123_0.png

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/869666/thumbs/o-ISRAEL-WEAPONS-ARSENAL-900.jpg?4

Israel has been targeted time and time again in it's history by Arab Countries. Six-Day War, Yom Kippur War. It is justified to have such Arsenal in order to deter these states from using aggressive tactics in order to get rid of Israel. Back in that time , Arab Leaders aimed to drive the Jews into the Sea.

[paulsterio]

Israel has been targeted time and time again in it's history by Arab Countries. Six-Day War, Yom Kippur War. It is justified to have such Arsenal in order to deter these states from using aggressive tactics in order to get rid of Israel. Back in that time , Arab Leaders aimed to drive the Jews into the Sea.

Yes, but you have to consider why this is the case, Palestinians don't hate Israelis for no reason, it is because, in their eyes, the land which is now Israel should, in fact, be Palestine. Now, I'm sure you can read up and understand the history - but the current situation is (like KingPomba pointed out) that both the Palestinians and Israelis call one place home and hence are fighting over that, both happenned to be born there and both have to put up with or fight over this situation.

It doesn't mean that the Arabs are right and the Israelis are wrong, neither does it mean the Israelis are right and the Arabs are wrong, they are both right and wrong and both are, to a certain degree, responsible for what has happenned - you can't just blame everything on the Arabs, you have to understand that, like Israel, they have a cause as well and they are acting the way they are for a reason.

[pi]

This is restraint?

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2012-11-23-vpviolencetimeline20121123_0.png

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/869666/thumbs/o-ISRAEL-WEAPONS-ARSENAL-900.jpg?4

Israel has been targeted time and time again in it's history by Arab Countries. Six-Day War, Yom Kippur War. It is justified to have such Arsenal in order to deter these states from using aggressive tactics in order to get rid of Israel. Back in that time , Arab Leaders aimed to drive the Jews into the Sea.

Is it justified to kill so many Palestinians? Look at the numbers, not the ammo. That's what tells the story.

Is it justified to deal damage to Palestinians because "Israel has been targeted time and time again in it's history by Arab Countries" (note: not "Palestine", but "Arab Countries")?

Personally, I don't think so.

[JellyDonut]

I really need to learn to let shit go but I really have some questions to ask

Israel has been exercising restraint in regards to Hamas firing Rockets into Southern Israel. 4000 to 5000 rockets have been fired into Israel since Operation Cast Lead. And it is not excessive retaliatory attacks

So the attacks done in retaliation is justified?

And time and time has warned civilians to evacuate surrounding areas before launching a strike on set location.

Do you think this is an appropriate military tactic?

An improvement on the Iron Dome will do nothing to sufficiently ward of these rocket attacks.

Why not?

Destroying and seriously inhibiting their ability to launch rocket attacks will ensure that the Citizens living in Southern Israel are able to live their lives normally as they can. 

What do you think Israel should do, then?
[/quote]

[Russ]

Numbers of people dead are a really bad way of measuring "restraint" here

[QuantumJG]

I've only read a couple posts (they're all really long), and I'm going to admit that my knowledge on middle eastern affairs is zilch. In my opinion, Jewish people definitely deserve they're own state. My opinion on the matter is similar to Enwiabeard's, the optimal solution would be for peace between Israel and Palestine. Until I read more comments, this is all I'll say.

[Biceps]

I've only read a couple posts (they're all really long), and I'm going to admit that my knowledge on middle eastern affairs is zilch. In my opinion, Jewish people definitely deserve they're own state. My opinion on the matter is similar to Enwiabeard's, the optimal solution would be for peace between Israel and Palestine. Until I read more comments, this is all I'll say.

The British mandate (forgot his name) gave the West Bank to Israel. This was a result of the demise of the Ottoman empire due to WW2.
You have people living on this land previously some of which form a military group (Hamas) who want to defend their land from the Israelis who also claim that land to be there. The war is over that stretch of land.
Jerusalem is holy land to all 3 Abrahamic religions.
Labeling Hamas as terrorists is not accurate since their objective is not to kill innocent people, it is to defend land they believe they own.
Sadly there can't be complete peace until one side gets the land. This can only be achieved by one side, unfortunately, wiping out the other.
Since the land originally belonged to the Palestinians I believe that they deserve the land.