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CaiTheHuman

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Re: Zionism
« Reply #90 on: December 03, 2012, 03:51:14 am »
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I'll answer that for him, he's talked to me about it, and yes he believes Israel should exist - he just wants Israel to stop massacring civilians and committing genocide.

That right Mr Politiks?

You know what I want, for the Arab League States to stop treating Palestinian Refugees like shit. I mean Jordan is like the only one giving them rights and work permits. As well as the ability to naturalize.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 05:23:50 am by Cai_ »
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Re: Zionism
« Reply #91 on: December 03, 2012, 08:22:28 am »
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stating facts is sugarcoating wat
It's really not that hard to quantify..., but I believe that being raped once is not as bad as being raped five times, even if the one rape was by a gang of people.

mr.politiks

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Re: Zionism
« Reply #92 on: December 03, 2012, 05:06:11 pm »
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Let us examine your evidence by looking at the first ten links on that Google search.


The first one talks about the Mavi Marmara flotilla raid.

On follow up of an independent UN Security Council investigation into the matter, i will quote the report:

Quote
"viii. The loss of life and injuries resulting from the use of force by Israeli forces
during the take-over of the Mavi Marmara was unacceptable. Nine
passengers were killed
and many others seriously wounded by Israeli forces.
No satisfactory explanation has been provided to the Panel by Israel for any
of the nine deaths. Forensic evidence showing that most of the deceased were
shot multiple times, including in the back, or at close range has not been
adequately accounted for in the material presented by Israel.


ix. There was significant mistreatment of passengers by Israeli authorities after
the take-over of the vessels had been completed through until their
deportation. This included physical mistreatment, harassment and
intimidation, unjustified confiscation of belongings and the denial of timely
consular assistance."

The second link is an article about the IDF from Haaretz improving its insufficient investigative procedures in response to International Pressure, but this improvement does not apply to Gaza.

The third is a video about (I think, cos the source is not dated) about cast lead. An airstrike against a civilian household killed 9 members of the same family, and didn’t kill any militants (who weren’t present in the house, maybe I missed something in the video, please let me know). An investigation was launched by the IDF. In light of the consistent and thorough knowledge about how the IDF actively avoids civilian casualties represented in this thread, and the fact that supporters of this conclusion claim to have sufficient evidence to prove it, please provide details about the IDF’s conclusion based independently verified evidence of why this happened.

The fourth is a link to a Wikipedia article on the Gaza war. There are several allegations of war crimes that have not been sufficiently investigated to this day.

The fifth is out of date relative to the second and no longer relevant.

The sixth is about an incident in which the IDF instructed civilians to seek shelter in a single home during operation cast lead and then subsequently shelled the home killing 21 civilians. The military later demolished the home with dead civilians inside. The IDF claims no one was responsible. This is the response of independent human rights organisation B’Tselem to the IDF’s denial of this war crime –
“The way the army has exempted itself of responsibility for this event, even if only to acknowledge its severity and clarify its circumstances, is intolerable. Shirking the responsibility for the deaths of hundreds of other civilians and the immense damage caused by operation Cast Lead demonstrates yet again the need for an Israeli investigation mechanism that is external to the army,” says a message on the Human Rights Group’s website.

The seventh is a thorough outline by a human rights group of how internal IDF field investigations create an atmosphere of impunity and are not genuinely impartial or independent. It outlines how the IDF launched shells and killed three civilians in an area where there was no fighting.

The eighth is about how the IDF has refused to enter an investigation after nearly two years after it killed a Palestinian protester in occupied territory (that means territory that does not even belong to Israel and belongs to the state of Palestine under international law)
The ninth is a Ynet News article that reports civilian death figures that differ vastly from official independent civilian death figures for operation cast lead. (That’s right, the IDF just says the civilians are not civilians)

The tenth is a load of IDF propaganda. I refuse to believe the propaganda of an organisation that actively targets and kills local Palestinian journalists in drone strikes, and question its side of the story when it is willing to actively murder civilian journalists to ensure the other side of the story does not get out. You can read about it here:

Quote
“Mahmoud al-Koumi and Husam Salameh, camera operators for local TV station al-Aqsa, were killed in a car marked as a press vehicle near the al-Wihda towers in Gaza. Both journalists were 30 years old and had four children.
Two other al-Aqsa employees were wounded in the first strike. The second attack killed the director of al-Quds Educational Radio, Muhammad Abu Aisha, in his car.”

http://rt.com/news/gaza-israel-attacks-journalists-killed-196/

If you want to know what happened in the OPT during the month of October feel free to read through these reports:

http://www.pchrgaza.org/portal/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8870:weekly-report-on-israeli-human-rights-violations-in-the-occupied-palestinian-territory-27-sep-03-oct-2012&catid=84:weekly-2009&Itemid=183

http://www.pchrgaza.org/portal/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8887:weekly-report-on-israeli-human-rights-violations-in-the-occupied-palestinian-territory-04-10-oct-2012&catid=84:weekly-2009&Itemid=183

http://www.pchrgaza.org/portal/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8908:weekly-report-on-israeli-human-rights-violations-in-the-occupied-palestinian-territory-11-17-oct-2012&catid=84:weekly-2009&Itemid=183


http://www.pchrgaza.org/portal/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8922:weekly-report-on-israeli-human-rights-violations-in-the-occupied-palestinian-territory-18-23-oct-2012&catid=84:weekly-2009&Itemid=183

http://www.pchrgaza.org/portal/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8966:weekly-report-on-israeli-human-rights-violations-in-the-occupied-palestinian-territory-24-oct-07-nov-2012&catid=84:weekly-2009&Itemid=183

Out of the recommended first ten of the links you have provided me, 6 of them provide evidence against your claims. I have no more interest in debating someone who doesn’t even read through their own provided evidence. You can believe what you will, and I will leave you with my stance and the 2012 Amnesty International report on Human Rights in the OPT.



My stance. I respect Israel’s existence. Some of the actions that formed the basis for its existence were undoubtedly illegitimate, and others undoubtedly legitimate. I believe that a debate about whether or not it should exist is basically counterproductive. However, I strongly dislike Israeli policy, and I consider it despicable and highly oppressive. I believe that the IDF commits nothing short of state sponsored terrorism.

I do not support the indiscriminate targeting of civilians by both sides. Nor do I support the use of them as human shields by both sides. I do not support the use of live fire to terrorise civilians by both sides. 2 Palestinian civilians have been killed, 25 civilians injured and 19 fisherman taken captive by the IDF since the ceasefire.

The Amnesty International Report follows:
Quote
The Israeli authorities continued to blockade the Gaza Strip, prolonging the humanitarian crisis there, and to restrict the movement of Palestinians in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT). In the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, the authorities continued to construct the fence/wall, much of it on Palestinian land, and to expand settlements, breaching international law. They demolished Palestinian homes and other facilities in the West Bank, and homes of Palestinian citizens inside Israel, especially in “unrecognized” villages in the Negev. The Israeli army frequently used excessive, sometimes lethal force against demonstrators in the West Bank and civilians in border areas within the Gaza Strip. Israeli military forces killed 55 civilians in the OPT, including 11 children. Settler violence against Palestinians in the West Bank increased, and three Palestinians were killed by Israeli settlers. Israeli settlers and soldiers accused of committing abuses against Palestinians generally escaped accountability. The authorities failed to conduct independent investigations into alleged war crimes by Israeli forces during Operation “Cast Lead” in 2008-2009. The Israeli authorities arrested thousands of West Bank Palestinians. More than 307 were administrative detainees held without charge or trial; others received prison terms following military trials. Israel held more than 4,200 Palestinian prisoners at the end of 2011. Reports of torture and other ill-treatment of detainees continued.

Background

International efforts to restart negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority (PA) failed. Israel opposed the PA’s application for full UN membership and temporarily withheld tax revenues due to the PA after Palestine became a full member of UNESCO.
Palestinian armed groups in Gaza fired indiscriminate rockets and mortars into southern Israel, killing two Israeli civilians (see Palestinian Authority entry); Israeli forces carried out attacks targeting Palestinians they deemed responsible. An Israeli high-school student was fatally injured in April when a missile fired from Gaza struck a school bus in the Negev. Eight Israeli settlers were killed by Palestinians in the West Bank, including one by PA security forces. Seven other civilians were killed in Israel, including six by armed militants who entered Israel from Egypt in August.

In October and December, Israel released 1,027 Palestinian prisoners, including some sentenced for killing Israeli civilians, in exchange for the release of Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit on 18 October. He had been held captive in Gaza and denied access to the ICRC by Palestinian armed groups since 2006. Israel also released 25 Egyptians in October in exchange for the release of an Israeli-US national imprisoned in Egypt.

From July to October, hundreds of thousands of Israelis participated in peaceful protests calling for lower housing costs and improved health and education systems.

Gaza blockade and humanitarian crisis

Israel maintained its military blockade of Gaza, imposed in 2007, and closed the Karni crossing in March, leaving Kerem Shalom as the only entry point for goods, despite its lack of capacity. The blockade prolonged the humanitarian crisis faced by Gaza’s 1.6 million residents, more than 70 per cent of whom were dependent on humanitarian aid. A near-complete ban on exports continued, stifling the economy, and severe restrictions on imports fuelled shortages and high prices. The blockade constituted collective punishment – a breach of international law – and particularly affected children and the sick. The Israeli authorities hindered or prevented hundreds of patients from leaving Gaza to obtain medical treatment.

Egypt opened the Rafah crossing to Gazans in May, but strictly controlled movement into and out of Gaza. At least 36 Palestinians were killed in accidents in or Israeli air strikes on tunnels used to smuggle goods between Egypt and Gaza.
Israel’s navy blocked several international flotillas seeking to break the Gaza blockade. In September a UN Panel of Inquiry ruled that the naval blockade of Gaza was lawful but did not address the legality of the overall closure regime imposed on Gaza.
Restrictions in the West Bank

More than 500 Israeli military checkpoints and barriers continued to hinder Palestinians’ access to workplaces, schools and hospitals in the West Bank, and Israel continued its construction of a 700km fence/wall, mostly on Palestinian land within the West Bank, separating thousands of Palestinian farmers from their land and water sources. West Bank Palestinians with Jerusalem entry permits were allowed to use only four of the fence/wall’s 16 checkpoints.

Palestinians were denied access to areas surrounding Israeli settlements, established and maintained in breach of international law. The construction of settlements increased. Settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, had more than 500,000 residents at the end of 2011.

Movement restrictions compelled some 200,000 Palestinians from 70 villages to take detours between two to five times longer than the direct route to reach the closest city, undermining their access to basic services.

Housing rights – forced eviction

The Israeli authorities generally withheld construction permits from Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem and Area C of the West Bank, where Israel retains full authority for planning and zoning, impeding their right to adequate housing. The Israeli authorities intensified their demolition of Palestinian homes and other facilities in the West Bank that had been built without permits, demolishing more than 620 structures during 2011. Almost 1,100 Palestinians were displaced as a result, an 80 per cent increase over 2010; more than 4,200 others were affected by demolitions of 170 animal shelters and 46 cisterns. Vulnerable Bedouin and herding communities were particularly affected, with some at risk of permanent displacement due to severe restrictions on their movement, repeated demolitions and violence by settlers.

•   In June, Israeli forces carried out repeated demolitions in Hadidiya, a herding community in the northern Jordan Valley, destroying 33 structures and making several families homeless. An appeal to the High Court of Justice resulted in a temporary injunction against further demolition orders that were issued in November.

The authorities also intensified demolitions of Palestinian homes inside Israel, particularly in officially “unrecognized” villages, where all construction is banned. In September, the cabinet approved plans to regulate “illegal” Bedouin construction in the southern Negev region; if implemented, these could lead to the forced eviction of thousands of Palestinian citizens of Israel.

•   Shacks and other structures in al-‘Araqib, an “unrecognized” village in the Negev, were demolished at least 20 times in 2011, following other demolitions in 2010. In July, the Israeli authorities brought a legal claim against the village residents seeking 1.8 million NIS (approximately US$500,000) to meet the costs of the repeated demolitions and evictions.

Excessive use of force

Israeli forces used live fire and other excessive force against Palestinian demonstrators in the West Bank and protesters at the Lebanese and Syrian borders, and to enforce the “exclusion zone” within Gaza and along its coast. They killed 55 Palestinian civilians in the OPT, including 11 children. Among them were 22 civilians, including nine children, killed by Israeli fire in Gaza’s land and sea restricted areas.

 The army initiated internal investigations into some of these incidents, but these were not independent or transparent.

•   Up to 35 people were reportedly killed and hundreds injured when Israeli soldiers fired at thousands of Palestinian refugees and others who protested on 15 May and 5 June at the Lebanese border with Israel and the Syrian border with the Israeli-occupied Golan. Some protesters threw stones and some crossed the border in the Golan Heights, but demonstrators did not have firearms and did not appear to pose a direct threat to the soldiers’ lives. Israel disputed the numbers killed and the circumstances.

•   Israeli soldiers regularly used excessive force against Palestinians demonstrating against the fence/wall, and those demonstrating against settlement expansion in the West Bank village of al-Nabi Saleh. On 9 December, they fatally injured Mustafa Tamimi, aged 28, who was struck in the face with a tear gas grenade fired at close range, in violation of military regulations, after he threw a stone at a military jeep.

Impunity

In January, Israel’s Turkel Commission concluded that Israeli forces had not violated international humanitarian law when they attacked a Gaza-bound aid flotilla in May 2010 and killed nine Turkish nationals, but failed to account for the nine deaths.

The authorities again took no steps to conduct credible, independent investigations into alleged war crimes and possible crimes against humanity committed by Israeli forces during Operation “Cast Lead” in 2008-2009, in which hundreds of Palestinian civilians were killed, although a few military police investigations into specific incidents continued.

Israeli settlers and security forces accused of abuses against Palestinians generally escaped accountability. The Israeli authorities routinely opened investigations, but these rarely resulted in prosecutions. Yesh Din, an Israeli NGO, reported that almost 90 per cent of official investigations into alleged settler violence that it had monitored since 2005 were closed, apparently because of investigatory failures, and that only 3.5 per cent of complaints to Israeli military authorities made by Palestinians alleging rights violations by Israeli soldiers between 2000 and 2010 had resulted in indictments.

Detention without trial

The Israeli authorities held at least 307 Palestinians from the OPT without charge or trial during 2011, under renewable administrative detention orders based on secret information withheld from the detainees and their lawyers. Three women administrative detainees were among the Palestinians released in exchange for the release of Gilad Shalit by Hamas.

•   Writer and academic Ahmad Qatamesh was arrested in April and held under a six-month administrative detention order which was renewed in September; he was still detained at the end of 2011. He was a prisoner of conscience.

Prison conditions – denial of family visits

The Israeli authorities continued to bar families from visiting Palestinian prisoners from Gaza held in Israeli prisons, maintaining a policy in force since June 2007. Although more than 200 prisoners from Gaza were released during 2011, some 440 remained in Israeli prisons at the end of the year. Relatives of West Bank prisoners were also frequently denied visitor permits by the Israeli authorities on unspecified “security” grounds.


Unfair trials

Palestinians in the OPT continued to be tried before military courts and routinely denied access to lawyers during pre-trial interrogation. On 27 September, Military Order 1676 raised the age of majority for Palestinians being tried before Israeli military courts from 16 to 18. Previously, 16 and 17 year olds had been tried by these courts on the same basis as adults. The new order failed to require that child detainees be provided with access to legal counsel during interrogation or that children over 16 be held separately from adults.
Torture and other ill-treatment

Allegations of torture and other ill-treatment, including of children, continued to be reported. Among the most commonly cited methods were beatings, threats to the detainee or their family, sleep deprivation, and being shackled in painful positions for long periods. Confessions allegedly obtained under duress were accepted as evidence in Israeli military courts.

•   Islam Dar Ayyoub, aged 14, was arrested at his home in the West Bank village of al-Nabi Saleh at around 2am on 23 January. Blindfolded and handcuffed, he was transferred by military jeep via the nearby settlement of Halamish to the police station in the settlement of Ma’ale Adumim, where he was interrogated for hours without the presence of a lawyer; he was not allowed to rest, eat, or go to the toilet. Information obtained from him during interrogation was used to incriminate al-Nabi Saleh protest organizer Bassem Tamimi (see below).

•   In February, Gazan engineer Dirar Abu Sisi was forcibly transferred to Israel from Ukraine and held at Shikma Prison, near Ashkelon, where he was denied access to a lawyer for 25 days. In April, he was charged with developing rockets for Hamas’ military wing; the Israeli authorities said he had confessed but his lawyers alleged that his confession had been obtained under torture. He was still held, reportedly in solitary confinement, at the end of the year.

Freedom of expression and association

The Knesset, Israel’s parliament, passed laws restricting freedom of expression and association, including one which made it an offence to advocate a boycott of Israeli individuals or institutions in Israel or Israeli settlements in the West Bank. Another penalized commemoration by institutions or municipalities of the Nakba (catastrophe), a term used by Palestinians to describe their dispossession in 1948. The Knesset also discussed, but by the end of 2011 had not passed, proposed legislation to limit or prevent the receipt of funds from foreign governments by Israeli human rights NGOs, particularly those that provided information to the 2009 UN Fact-Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict.

Palestinian activists in the West Bank who mounted protests, some peaceful, against the fence/wall and the presence of illegal Israeli settlements continued to face arrest and trial before Israeli military courts. The Israeli authorities arrested at least 14 Palestinian journalists, two of whom were held as administrative detainees.

•   In January, a military appeals court extended the sentence of Abdallah Abu Rahma, a non-violent activist against the fence/wall from the village of Bil’in, from one year to 16 months. He had been convicted of incitement and organizing illegal demonstrations on the basis of statements made by children under duress. He was a prisoner of conscience. He was released in March after serving his full sentence.

•   Bassem Tamimi, a long-standing activist and peaceful critic of Israeli policies, was arrested on 24 March and later charged with organizing protests in the village of al-Nabi Saleh. He remained in custody as his military trial continued at the end of 2011. He was a prisoner of conscience.

Refugees and asylum-seekers

The Israeli authorities continued to deny access to refugee-determination procedures to Eritrean and Sudanese asylum-seekers, who comprised about 80 per cent of the approximately 45,000 asylum-seekers in Israel. They were provided only with temporary documents and were not allowed to work or access public health and welfare services. Only a small number of asylum-seekers from other countries were granted refugee status.

Tough new measures to deter future asylum-seekers progressed through parliament. In March, the Knesset approved the first reading of an Anti-Infiltration Bill under which undocumented migrants and asylum-seekers would be liable to imprisonment for three or more years. In September, the National Council for Building and Planning published plans for a 10,000-bed detention centre for asylum-seekers near Israel’s border with Egypt. Despite an Israeli army decision in March to suspend the practice of “hot returns” of asylum-seekers entering Israel from Egypt without first checking their asylum claims, NGOs documented further cases of forced returns to Egypt until July.

Prisoners of conscience – Israeli conscientious objectors

At least three Israeli conscientious objectors were imprisoned during 2011 for refusing military service because they opposed Israel’s occupation of the Palestinian territories.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 05:46:27 pm by mr.politiks »

enwiabe

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Re: Zionism
« Reply #93 on: December 03, 2012, 06:32:47 pm »
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I have no more interest in debating someone who doesn’t even read through their own provided evidence.

Where did I say "Let Me Google That For You.com" was evidence for any of my positions?

I was simply showing you how simple it was to find out information about the point I raised. I said the first 10 results alone talk about it in-depth. I didn't say they were for, or against, any arguments I brought.

I guess I can understand why you are entirely unable to conceive of somebody linking to unbiased information. I linked you to a web search. I was trying to get you to weigh and consider evidence from a multitude of sources.

But, sadly, you can't even fathom what it might be like to argue with facts, rather than cherrypicked soundbites that suit your cause. I want people to read every side and understand the context of the arguments put forward by all parties, so they can come to a considered conclusion. You're a big fan of just reading sources which already support your stance, and any that don't are merely propaganda and obviously lies.

You then go to list your own set of links from a body that's hardly independent. If you're going to label IDF propaganda and brainwashing, it's kind of funny that you'd then go and link to a bunch of PCHR Gaza reports: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Centre_for_Human_Rights#Criticism

That body is literally guilty of the same bias you decry from IDF. You have one set of standards for yourself, and one set of standards for everyone else. Your duplicity is transparent and hideous.

Mech

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Re: Zionism
« Reply #94 on: December 03, 2012, 07:46:48 pm »
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To me, this antagonism between the Palestinians and Israelis is a "squabble" and is described as such by Christopher Hitchens who had Jewish descent. I disagree with the appropriation of land for the Jews was the best ideas back in 1947 (from memory); however, both Palestine and Israel are extant states. It needs to be recognised that there is a need for reconciliation and a throwing to the wayside of radical ethno-religious beliefs. I, however, am cynical and do not think this will happen due to the inextricable religious tensions in the region and the lack of diplomatic rapport that the international community, particularly the United States, has with neighbouring Arab nations. The US has poured a lot of money into the Zionist state and I feel it has largely condemned states like Iran to be pariahs with clandestine nuclear weapons programmes and inflammatory rhetoric.

Christopher Hitchens said, "I am an Anti-Zionist. I'm one of those people of Jewish descent who believes that Zionism would be a mistake even if there were no Palestinians." I tend to agree with him. Any position that believes they are entitled to land on the basis of religious right is immanently absurd. However, the 'other side' shares the same view of religious entitlement but have been the most recent long-standing occupants of the land. The temples are now mosques, the rabbinical incantations competing with salah.

I am not quite sure why some of the diaspora want to return.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 11:01:27 pm by Mech »
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mr.politiks

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Re: Zionism
« Reply #95 on: December 03, 2012, 09:40:19 pm »
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First you said this

Quote
Israel does not target cvilians. They  target Hamas and other militia. Civilians are unavoidable casualties because Hamas uses them as human shields. You know Israel gives a shit because when they fuck up, there are top level inquiries held to make sure it doesn't happen again. If it's ever the case that a soldier gets trigger happy, they like any other country in the world, prosecute him within their court martial system. If there's a mission that can even be thought of as targeting civilians there is a full, independent inquiry.

If you can't acknowledge that, you are truly brainwashed. If you want me to post you links to these inquiries I can. But I'd rather you do some actual research of your own for once before mouthing off so blithely without knowing anything remotely resembling the facts.

Then I said this:

Quote
As for the IDF conducting those investigations. Please give me the links, i would like to read them.

Then you said this:

Quote
This is how I have to present the links for this: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=IDF+investigation+into+civilian+casualties

I interpreted this as your evidence for your claims.

Also

Quote
the first page alone has 10 goldmine links flush with information.

and there wasnt really anything that supported your claims

also
Quote
You aren't unable to find this information for yourself

Actually I havent yet found any information that supports your claim quoted twice below. And, even if you dont believe that you were giving that google search as evidence, im just trying to do my best with what you have given me.

Also

Quote
That body is literally guilty of the same bias you decry from IDF.

How can anyone be as biased as an organisation that is willing to murder innocent civilians to ensure only its own side of the story gets out?

Please provide evidence for this claim, ill ask you one more time:

Quote
Israel does not target cvilians. They  target Hamas and other militia. Civilians are unavoidable casualties because Hamas uses them as human shields. You know Israel gives a shit because when they fuck up, there are top level inquiries held to make sure it doesn't happen again. If it's ever the case that a soldier gets trigger happy, they like any other country in the world, prosecute him within their court martial system. If there's a mission that can even be thought of as targeting civilians there is a full, independent inquiry.

And please, read your own sources thouroughly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Centre_for_Human_Rights#cite_note-15):

Quote
The Centre states on its website that its founding principles are to:[2]

        Protect human rights and promote the rule of law in accordance with international standards.
        Create and develop democratic institutions and an active civil society, while promoting democratic culture within Palestinian society.
        Support all the efforts aimed at enabling the Palestinian people to exercise its inalienable rights in regard to self-determination and independence in accordance with international Law and UN resolutions.

In its philosophy statement,[3] PCHR repudiates the Oslo Accords as 'fatally flawed' and adds:

    Moreover, the Oslo accords failed to address the essential elements of the Palestinian question -- the right to self-determination, the right to an independent Palestinian state with its capital in Jerusalem, the right of return for Palestinian refugees and the removal of Israeli settlements from the OPT. In light of this wide-ranging disregard for the human rights of the Palestinian people, the Centre resolved to continue its work to protect human rights from ongoing violations by the Israeli Occupation Forces (IOF).

The group has consultative and affiliative status with a number of Arab, European and United Nations' organizations and has received the 1996 French Republic Award on Human Rights and the 2002 Bruno Kreisky Award for Outstanding Achievements in the Area of Human Rights.[2] The group has repeatedly called for a ban on capital punishment in the Palestinian territories, which is supported by a majority of Palestinians.[4] The group has also released reports relating to violence in the Palestinian territories and Israel.[5][6] Raji Sourani, director of the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, was denied a permit to exit the Gaza Strip to attend a human rights conference in September 2008.[7]


Quote
In their report titled "Impunity for US Peace Activist's Death" that contains eyewitness testimonies for Rachel Corrie's disputable death case, on 30 June 2003, PCHR declared they have "submitted more than 1200 complaints to the Israeli occupying forces regarding human rights violations since the beginning of the current Intifada. In no case in which PCHR has submitted a complaint, has any individual in the Israeli occupying forces, security services or other persons, been prosecuted or otherwise disciplined for any act perpetrated against a Palestinian or foreign national. PCHR asserts that the State of Israel should be aware that where it fails in its specific legal obligations to conduct full and fair investigations into human rights violations, and bring those responsible to justice in accordance with international law, victims of Israeli war crimes may seek alternative judicial remedies abroad, including under the principle of universal jurisdiction." [9]

The PCHR condemned the Israeli government for allowing "Jewish settler groups to enter the yards of the al-Aqsa Mosque in occupied East Jerusalem" and for using excessive force against Palestinians attempting to "prevent the provocative entry of settlers into the Mosque."[10]

In 2011 the PCHR criticized a decision by Hamas prohibiting a group of seven high school students from leaving Gaza in order to spend a year studying in the United States. The American nonprofit Amideast had awarded the students special scholarships for the program. A Hamas minister explained that "A 15-year-old girl cannot spend a year in America without a supervisor."[11]

2011 saw further attacks by Hamas who criticised the Centre for releasing a statement with Israeli human rights groups calling for the appropriate treatment for captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit. [12]

The Centre has consistenly maintained its fearless stance and has been the leader in the fight to bring Israeli alleged war criminals to justice through use of the principle of universal jurisdiction. A number of promnent international cases have been taken, including that against Maj-Gen Doron Almog in the UK. [13]

Please reconsider the credibility of the criticism of this organisation. Does it look biased to you? Does it look like its at the same level as the IDF?

I think this has gone on long enough. You don't have the evidence to support this claim:

Quote
Israel does not target cvilians. They  target Hamas and other militia. Civilians are unavoidable casualties because Hamas uses them as human shields. You know Israel gives a shit because when they fuck up, there are top level inquiries held to make sure it doesn't happen again. If it's ever the case that a soldier gets trigger happy, they like any other country in the world, prosecute him within their court martial system. If there's a mission that can even be thought of as targeting civilians there is a full, independent inquiry.

I trust you to reconsider your position on the moral nature of the IDF's actions.


« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 10:50:39 pm by mr.politiks »

enwiabe

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Re: Zionism
« Reply #96 on: December 04, 2012, 12:13:57 am »
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Did you actually just try to argue that because PCHR Gaza won some obscure award that that qualifies their integrity? And they made one critcism of Hamas and released one joint statement with some Israeli NGOs? Really? Okay :)

Obama won the Nobel Peace prize but that didn't stop him droning the fuck out of Pakistan...

I see that your problem was with my misuse of the word "independent", unfortunate because the synapse in my brain attached to "inquiry" is preceded by "independent", so I used the word without really thinking. It's kind of impossible for an organisation to investigate itself independently. Other organisations like the UN and NGOs do the independent investigations.

What I conveyed was that the IDF investigates itself and publishes the findings. If you really need links and cannot find them for yourself, here is the Cast Lead review:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/E89E699D-A435-491B-B2D0-017675DAFEF7/0/GazaOperation.pdf

And you can google for analysis of it. You'll find opinions from all sides of the spectrum, but I'm sure whichever ones demonise the IDF the most will tickle your fancy.

You let me know when Hamas releases its report on how it could minimise civilian casualties.

Ultimately, all you've done is derail this argument in to one of semantics. You just can't fathom that, no, IDF does not indiscriminately attack civilians. That's not to say there's never been a trigger-happy soldier, but read the report. Those soldiers get court-martialled and punished.

The IDF targets terrorists, and civilians are collateral damage because Hamas are a bunch of cowards and use them as human shields.

You're ultimately stepping away from your real goal which is valid criticism of Israeli government policy which sends them to war. Let's talk about the idiotic settlements, and you'll have no argument from me. Bibi's an idiot, and I hope he's thrown out on his ass at the next election.

But I don't know that you're capable of that rational dialogue. You'd come back after that with "yes, and that is why it's all Israel's fault".

You still never answered my question. You just ignore points that are brought up when they become too uncomfortable. Do you acknowledge that Hamas fired 171 rockets into Israel in the month of October, which predates the event you claimed was the antecedent to the conflict by weeks? Do you acknowledge that, or are you just going to dodge any facts that do not support your cause again and again and again like you have for this entire 'debate'?

It seems to me like the only reason you don't want to debate me is you don't like being confronted with facts.



« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 12:17:32 am by enwiabeard »

thushan

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Re: Zionism
« Reply #97 on: December 04, 2012, 02:04:09 pm »
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Guys, let's not attack each other's motives for putting forward arguments. Simply because an argument or a point comes from a biased source does not necessarily mean the argument or point is null and void, it simply means that it needs to be scrutinised and evaluated critically just like any argument.

From what I see, the main dispute is whether the IDF are actively killing and targeting civilians, as opposed to killing civilians out of "collateral damage." In particular, I want to examine Mr Politiks' quote of the Amnesty International report:

"Excessive use of force

Israeli forces used live fire and other excessive force against Palestinian demonstrators in the West Bank and protesters at the Lebanese and Syrian borders, and to enforce the “exclusion zone” within Gaza and along its coast. They killed 55 Palestinian civilians in the OPT, including 11 children. Among them were 22 civilians, including nine children, killed by Israeli fire in Gaza’s land and sea restricted areas.

The army initiated internal investigations into some of these incidents, but these were not independent or transparent.

•   Up to 35 people were reportedly killed and hundreds injured when Israeli soldiers fired at thousands of Palestinian refugees and others who protested on 15 May and 5 June at the Lebanese border with Israel and the Syrian border with the Israeli-occupied Golan. Some protesters threw stones and some crossed the border in the Golan Heights, but demonstrators did not have firearms and did not appear to pose a direct threat to the soldiers’ lives. Israel disputed the numbers killed and the circumstances.

•   Israeli soldiers regularly used excessive force against Palestinians demonstrating against the fence/wall, and those demonstrating against settlement expansion in the West Bank village of al-Nabi Saleh. On 9 December, they fatally injured Mustafa Tamimi, aged 28, who was struck in the face with a tear gas grenade fired at close range, in violation of military regulations, after he threw a stone at a military jeep. "

My analysis is this:

"The army initiated internal investigations into some of these incidents, but these were not independent or transparent."

Point taken. When a party investigates itself, chances are there will be bias towards that party. Stating the obvious.

Also, another thing. These are one or two incidents. These are soldiers on the ground who allegedly fired @ civilians. We need to see the verdict of the internal investigations to make a judgement here. Were the soldiers sanctioned? It's one thing for a set of soldiers to massacre civilians. It's another for the entire IDF policy to be genocidal. Before we can make that leap, we'd have to have a look at available evidence of a systematic operation as opposed to sporadic events.

I think Mr Politiks would have it that there are WAY too many events of civilian massacre for it to possibly be sporadic instead of systematic.

So two questions need to be answered:

  • have there been instances of IDF deliberately massacring civilians, specifically Palestinian civilians?
  • if so, are these events isolated and condemned by the IDF by and large, or is the IDF performing an operation to kill as many Palestinian civilians as possible, or something to that effect whether less or more extreme? OR a case of the IDF simply turning a blind eye?
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 02:13:18 pm by vcephysicsderp »
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thushan

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Re: Zionism
« Reply #98 on: December 04, 2012, 02:09:37 pm »
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Also, another thing. Attacking Hamas' actions I don't think is useful. They are a terrorist organisation, they are already flouting international law and are operating independently of it, whether we like it or not.

Just because Hamas is doing horrible things does not give Israel, a member of the international community, licence to flout international law itself.
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Re: Zionism
« Reply #99 on: December 04, 2012, 02:11:44 pm »
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I would submit that if you try to fight terrorists by working within the rules, you're never going to win

thushan

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Re: Zionism
« Reply #100 on: December 04, 2012, 02:13:55 pm »
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I would submit that if you try to fight terrorists by working within the rules, you're never going to win

And that's where it gets impossibly difficult.

But IF the IDF were actively targeting civilians...is that necessary to win?
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Re: Zionism
« Reply #101 on: December 04, 2012, 02:17:01 pm »
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I would submit that if you try to fight terrorists by working within the rules, you're never going to win
That's true, as they're not playing within any rules. But, and it's a big but, by playing outside the rules you risk becoming just as bad.

thushan

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Re: Zionism
« Reply #102 on: December 04, 2012, 02:22:22 pm »
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But not playing outside the rules leaves YOU responsible for the deaths of your own civilians once the enemy obliterates your people.

See how difficult it is? Tbh if I were in command of the Israeli forces I'd have no idea what to do, because I can't make those decisions. It's either kill civilians or let civilians be killed.
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Re: Zionism
« Reply #103 on: December 04, 2012, 02:32:45 pm »
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But not playing outside the rules leaves YOU responsible for the deaths of your own civilians once the enemy obliterates your people.

See how difficult it is? Tbh if I were in command of the Israeli forces I'd have no idea what to do, because I can't make those decisions. It's either kill civilians or let civilians be killed.
It's a very difficult situation, I have no idea what I'd do either. But playing outside of the rules complicates it further and will not improve the rest of the world's view of you.

thushan

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Re: Zionism
« Reply #104 on: December 04, 2012, 02:36:33 pm »
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"will not improve the rest of the world's view of you"

You're right. But...is it worth losing your reputation to protect your civilians (whilst killing other civilians?) Or leaving those civilians alone at all costs, allowing your civilians to get killed, whilst keeping your rep - with the motive of maintaining your rep?

Remember...obedience is doing what you are told, whether right or wrong. Morality is doing what is right, whether you are told to or told not to.

But...the problem is that you have to do one of two wrongs. Which wrong is it? Which is more wrong? I don't envy those who are in power at the moment.
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