Zionism

[enwiabe]

Let me put to you how absurd the notion is... How much more or less should you care if 50 people had their arms blown off, with 210 having scrapes and bruises. Should you care exactly 50% less if 25 people have their arms blown off with 235 escaping with just scrapes and bruises?

This is not really about how much I care. This was about, what I thought, was a question about whether "wounded" includes fatalities and a comparison between the two.

I think both sides are wrong. You seem to have a closer attachment to Israel, he to Palestine. You both think one another needs to recognise the plight of the other and no progress is being made. Much like the whole situation, really.

You need to look up the definition of the word casualties...

I took it to be a fatality? Excuse me if they are used interchangeably or if casualty includes "wounded" or "injured". 

How about you look it up, mate.

I did. My apologies. As I said, I was under the impression a casualty was a fatality.

Not trying to get anyone angry here. 

If only that were actually the case. I do recognise the plight of the Palestinians. I am willing to concede ground, and I'm willing to crticise Israeli governments when they're out of line. He is blinded by his brainwashing that Israel is evil and everything Palestinian militants do in the name of their movement for statehood and self-determination is justified.

The only thing aggravating me this entire time is this sheer myopia. It's ugly and is what contributes to making this conflict so intractible.

[Mech]

If only that were actually the case. I do recognise the plight of the Palestinians. I am willing to concede ground, and I'm willing to crticise Israeli governments when they're out of line. He is blinded by his brainwashing that Israel is evil and everything Palestinian militants do in the name of their movement for statehood and self-determination is justified.

The only thing aggravating me this entire time is this sheer myopia. It's ugly and is what contributes to making this conflict so intractible.

You seem to have beef with Hamas (not that I am condemning you for that view, because I share it), but a lot of Palestinians sympathise with Hamas (according the a 2007 survey I think I mentioned earlier). It is not really just myopia onone side, it is both sides. The Zionist policies of the major parties are pretty steadfast as well (at least according to their platforms).

I think you have sympathies, if ever so slight, more for Israel. That is my impression. I definitely can see in previous posts where he has a greater bias, but I did not take this particular post to be too bad.

That's just me. Not trying to cause waves.

[enwiabe]

If only that were actually the case. I do recognise the plight of the Palestinians. I am willing to concede ground, and I'm willing to crticise Israeli governments when they're out of line. He is blinded by his brainwashing that Israel is evil and everything Palestinian militants do in the name of their movement for statehood and self-determination is justified.

The only thing aggravating me this entire time is this sheer myopia. It's ugly and is what contributes to making this conflict so intractible.

You seem to have beef with Hamas (not that I am condemning you for that view, because I share it), but a lot of Palestinians sympathise with Hamas (according the a 2007 survey I think I mentioned earlier). It is not really just myopia onone side, it is both sides. The Zionist policies of the major parties are pretty steadfast as well (at least according to their platforms).

I think you have sympathies, if ever so slight, more for Israel. That is my impression. I definitely can see in previous posts where he has a greater bias, but I did not take this particular post to be too bad.

That's just me. Not trying to cause waves.

I would be lying if I said my upbringing did not influence me to have a bias towards Israel. I try to keep that bias in check as much as possible, and weigh the Israeli government's actions on their merits rather than any sentimentality that I feel.

Hamas won the election in 2006 and have since banned elections. They no longer carry a manadate to represent the palestinian people. They are a dictatorship and a militia and serve as precious little more than agitators for conflict. They have squirreled away aid from their own people, and put their lives in danger for far too long.

In your quest to strive for "fairness" you have mistaken equal placing of blame with equal weighting of blame. That is not balance, it is nothing more than pandering and lip service. You have mistaken my defense of the truth (when mr.politiks and oglow were making baseless accusations against IDF) with support for Israel. I've largely just been calling them out on their misrepresentations.

[Mech]

I would be lying if I said my upbringing did not influence me to have a bias towards Israel. I try to keep that bias in check as much as possible, and weigh the Israeli government's actions on their merits rather than any sentimentality that I feel.

That is very admirable. 

Hamas won the election in 2006 and have since banned elections. They no longer carry a manadate to represent the palestinian people. They are a dictatorship and a militia and serve as precious little more than agitators for conflict. They have squirrelled away aid from their own people, and put their lives in danger for far too long.

I agree, but you still see 2007 statistics showing them to have a large approval rating. I am not sure how this has fluctuated and if it is still the case. I would like to see more recent statistics before I make the claim conclusively they do not represent the Palestinians (more than likely, they do not).

In your quest to strive for "fairness" you have mistaken equal placing of blame with equal weighting of blame. That is not balance, it is nothing more than pandering and lip service. You have mistaken my defense of the truth (when mr.politiks and oglow were making baseless accusations against IDF) with support for Israel. I've largely just been calling them out on their misrepresentations.

I am very sceptical about any historical truth, so forgive me if I do not really hold any one side to really presenting truth. It is not really lip service or pandering; I do not think either have made a strong case for the Palestinians and I think you are getting too worked up about this. Calling people "brainwashed" and talking about "koolaid" just seems to be verging on the abrasive side, eh? I can see your are passionate, and I respect that, but it is not really warranted to have any proper discussion. Also, it does not seem fair to be accusing me of "lip service" and "pandering" when I made an honest mistake.

[enwiabe]

I am very sceptical about any historical truth, so forgive me if I do not really hold any one side to really presenting truth. It is not really lip service or pandering; I do not think either have made a strong case for the Palestinians and I think you are getting too worked up about this. Calling people "brainwashed" and talking about "koolaid" just seems to be verging on the abrasive side, eh? I can see your are passionate, and I respect that, but it is not really warranted to have any proper discussion. Also, it does not seem fair to be accusing me of "lip service" and "pandering" when I made an honest mistake.

If you honestly think that "It is not really just myopia onone side, it is both sides. The Zionist policies of the major parties are pretty steadfast as well (at least according to their platforms)." is the case, you're either naive or disingenuous. I'll let you pick.

Kadima would happily give up all of east jerusalem in exchange for peace. That's hardly a "steadfast Zionist policy".

Or is this merely another case of you talking out of your ass without knowing the facts? You seem to do an awful lot of that, and then you have the gall to accuse others of impeding proper discussion for calling you out on airing your malformed opinions. "What??? Me??? I'm just trying to have a proper discussion. Who cares that I don't know much about the topic at hand?! It's not important!"

That is what frustrates me about you. You're happy to admit a large amount of ignorance and you're upset when I call you out for being so authoritative while admitting to knowing very little.

[Mech]

If you honestly think that "It is not really just myopia on one side, it is both sides. The Zionist policies of the major parties are pretty steadfast as well (at least according to their platforms)." is the case, you're either naive or disingenuous. I'll let you pick.

Kadima would happily give up all of east jerusalem in exchange for peace. That's hardly a "steadfast Zionist policy".

Likud and Shas parties do not share that view.

Or is this merely another case of you talking out of your ass without knowing the facts? You seem to do an awful lot of that, and then you get upset when people get angry at you for airing your malformed opinions. "What??? Me??? I'm just trying to have a proper discussion. Who cares that I don't know much about the topic at hand?! It's not important!"

And your civility goes out the window. Some here just find it fucking annoying to see the CEO act like a little kid and would like it if you did not get angry.

That is what frustrates me about you. You're happy to admit a large amount of ignorance and you're upset when people call you out for being so authoritative while admitting to knowing very little.

I am happy to admit I do not take a strong side either way and I do not know the view of Hamas by Palestinians based on stats other than I have seen. I am not trying to be authoritative, I just thought he was making a point and made a mistake.

Take it easy.

[enwiabe]

If you honestly think that "It is not really just myopia on one side, it is both sides. The Zionist policies of the major parties are pretty steadfast as well (at least according to their platforms)." is the case, you're either naive or disingenuous. I'll let you pick.

Kadima would happily give up all of east jerusalem in exchange for peace. That's hardly a "steadfast Zionist policy".

Likud and Shas parties do not share that view.

You said THE major parties. You did not say Likud and Shas. You made a blanket statement about all of them, once again talking out your ass.

The only difference is now you're suddenly unwilling to admit your ignorance.

I am happy to admit I do not take a strong side either way and I do not know the view of Hamas by Palestinians based on stats other than I have seen. I am not trying to be authoritative, I just thought he was making a point and made a mistake.

Take it easy.

"I think both sides are wrong."

That was your statement. Wear it.

And your civility goes out the window. Some here just find it fucking annoying to see the CEO act like a little kid and would like it if you did not get angry.

Finally, the only one acting like a child is you. You're just throwing a tantrum because I'm actually calling you out when you're making blatantly false statements. And you're seriously upset that I should criticise you for this.

I'm not angry, I'm frustrated by your ignorance. Why should my position preclude me from calling you out on your ignorance? It feels more like you're just trying to use this as a bludgeon to silence me. So much for wanting to foster a robust discussion.

[Mech]

You said THE major parties. You did not say Likud and Shas. You made a blanket statement about all of them, once again talking out your ass.

As far as I am aware, the Likud is the second largest party and the Shas are like fourth or fifth.

"I think both sides are wrong."

That was your statement. Wear it.

I accept that. I do NOT think you and the people you are arguing with are right; you are both wrong. I also happen to think anyone killing is wrong.

I'm not angry, I'm frustrated by your ignorance. Why should my position preclude me from calling you out on your ignorance? It feels more like you're just trying to use this as a bludgeon to silence me. So much for wanting to foster a robust discussion.

If you think people are ignorant, go about discussing it and teaching them in a civil manner. I have not called you a name up until you have a go at me personally. Calling people "brainwashed" and talking about "koolaid" sure seems like you are getting shitty at people. How is that facilitating any proper discussion? It just seems unnecessary.

[enwiabe]

As far as I am aware, the Likud is the second largest party and the Shas are like fourth or fifth.

Let me show you how asinine that statement is.

"The major parties of Australia back the carbon tax."

And because Labor and the Greens are the 1st and 3rd for size in the Aussie political landscape, according to you that would be a true statement.

Except that the Libs are a major party and most certainly do not back a carbon tax. How hard is it for you to admit that you had once more made a statement that was ill-considered?

Calling someone brainwashed serves the purpose of impugning their biases. If they are brought up in an environment where they are subjected to nothing but vitriol about the other side, it really is brainwashing. I was brainwashed myself. I don't take it as an insult, it's not a statement about me personally, it's a statement about something that happened to me. I was able to overcome it, and I hope they will too.

Two points about "I think both sides are wrong."

1) Do you believe they are wrong in equal measure?
2) How can you think that when you admittedly know so little about the situation? Don't you feel like you should know the situation better before making this judgment call, or are you actually happy to once more assert things without knowing large chunks of the story?

[Mech]

How hard is it for you to admit that you had once more made a statement that was ill-considered?

I did not really mean to make a blanket statement. My apologies, yes, I see.

Calling people brainwashed serves the purpose of impugning their biases... I don't take it as an insult, it's not a statement about me personally, it's a statement about something that happened to me. I was able to overcome it, and I hope they will too.

I am not even going to bother with this.

You are brainwashed. Do not take that personally.

Do you believe they are wrong in equal measure?

So this is a contest about who is more or less wrong now? I, personally, do not agree with the whole Zionist philosophy or a Jewish state in the middle of Palestine; I also do not agree with Hamas and I do not agree with how they go about the whole thing. Both sides are wrong to me.

Am I supposed to put numbers to this?

How can you think that...

Because I do not share the same view as you and perhaps I am not as well-versed as you in the history, but nobody needs to be insulted when you try and tell them about it.

[enwiabe]

You are brainwashed. Do not take that personally.

I most certainly was, and still battle its effects to this day. Thank you for your sympathies.

So this is a contest about who is more or less wrong now? I, personally, do not agree with the whole Zionist philosophy or a Jewish state in the middle of Palestine; I also do not agree with Hamas and I do not agree with how they go about the whole thing. Both sides are wrong to me.

Because I do not share the same view as you and perhaps I am not as well-versed as you in the history, but nobody needs to be insulted when you try and tell them about it.

You really misunderstand the point I'm making. I'm asking you how you can make those judgment calls when you know so little. You've admitted you know so little. You don't even seem to appreciate that the "two different sides" have precious little to do with Zionism itself anymore. Zionism succeeded... The Jewish state is already there.

Palestinian nationhood is not about anti-zionism. Hamas is anti-Israel for sure, and so my beef in this thread is with the hamas apologists who would gladly support a terrorist group in their misguided attempts to support Palestinian nationhood.

On the other side, you have the lunatic settlers trying to undo years of peace negotiations and an irresponsible government letting them in retaliation for the PA going to the UN to achieve statehood rather than through peace negotiations with Israel. It's just a never-ending cycle of mistrust and self-defeatism.

Your gross misrepresentations of the "sides" as Zionism vs. Hamas is a joke. That's not at all what it is. The actual situation is much more layered than you even know, that you'll find there are many more sides than two. I really just wanted you to elucidate your absurd conclusions so I could draw them out for what they are.

If you have to distill it into two sides to satisfy your need for a dichotomy, it's the Palestinians looking for self-determination, and Israelis looking for peace and stability after 65 years of nothing but war. And in my opinion, both sides are right.

[mr.politiks]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine

[ninwa]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine

Why did you start a "discussion" thread if you're not going to even bother responding to any of the other side?

[enwiabe]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine

Isn't it awkward when you can't answer simple questions, mr. politiks?

[Biceps]

Listen to the brainwashing that's just dripping off your words. You know -nothing- about the 260 wounded. Your FIRST assumption (without having -any- facts) is that "oh, most of them must be minor injuries". And the fact that "only a handful are actually at risk of dying" makes it okay.

Are you kidding me? Do you understand how you sound?

The reason for that argument is that the rockets Hamas uses are weak and with the iron dome these rockets are hardly capable of hurting somebody. Furthermore Israel's retaliation was much more dramatic i presume since they do have more advanced technology and weaponry.