Zionism

[Biceps]

By casualties i was talking about deaths.

[Planck's constant]

The reason for that argument is that the rockets Hamas uses are weak and with the iron dome these rockets are hardly capable of hurting somebody.

It still sounds like attempted murder to me.

[Truck]

The reason for that argument is that the rockets Hamas uses are weak and with the iron dome these rockets are hardly capable of hurting somebody. Furthermore Israel's retaliation was much more dramatic i presume since they do have more advanced technology and weaponry.

Iron dome doesn't intercept 100% of rockets, and the rockets are still a disruption to everyones daily life - could you imagine having to interrupt your daily life once every hour by running into a bomb shelter?

[Biceps]

Iron dome doesn't intercept 100% of rockets, and the rockets are still a disruption to everyones daily life - could you imagine having to interrupt your daily life once every hour by running into a bomb shelter?

Sadly this is the situation in both countries not just Israel.
I've lived in Lebanon during war times, i know exactly how that feels and you're absolutely right, it fucking sucks.
Thank god i am here in Australia.

[mr.politiks]

Did you actually just try to argue that because PCHR Gaza won some obscure award that that qualifies their integrity? And they made one critcism of Hamas and released one joint statement with some Israeli NGOs? Really? Okay

Obama won the Nobel Peace prize but that didn't stop him droning the fuck out of Pakistan...

I see that your problem was with my misuse of the word "independent", unfortunate because the synapse in my brain attached to "inquiry" is preceded by "independent", so I used the word without really thinking. It's kind of impossible for an organisation to investigate itself independently. Other organisations like the UN and NGOs do the independent investigations. Wonder if you've read those?

What I conveyed was that the IDF investigates itself and publishes the findings. If you really need links and cannot find them for yourself, here is the Cast Lead review:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/E89E699D-A435-491B-B2D0-017675DAFEF7/0/GazaOperation.pdf

And you can google for analysis of it. You'll find opinions from all sides of the spectrum, but I'm sure whichever ones demonise the IDF the most will tickle your fancy.

You let me know when Hamas releases its report on how it could minimise civilian casualties.

Ultimately, all you've done is derail this argument in to one of semantics. You just can't fathom that, no, IDF does not indiscriminately attack civilians. That's not to say there's never been a trigger-happy soldier, but read the report. Those soldiers get court-martialled and punished. Its a long report, lets be fair, point out the evidence in the report that shows soldiers were persecuted

The IDF targets terrorists, and civilians are collateral damage because Hamas are a bunch of cowards and use them as human shields.

You're ultimately stepping away from your real goal which is valid criticism of Israeli government policy which sends them to war. Let's talk about the idiotic settlements, and you'll have no argument from me. Bibi's an idiot, and I hope he's thrown out on his ass at the next election.

But I don't know that you're capable of that rational dialogue. You'd come back after that with "yes, and that is why it's all Israel's fault".

You still never answered my question. You just ignore points that are brought up when they become too uncomfortable. Do you acknowledge that Hamas fired 171 rockets into Israel in the month of October, which predates the event you claimed was the antecedent to the conflict by weeks? Do you acknowledge that, or are you just going to dodge any facts that do not support your cause again and again and again like you have for this entire 'debate'?

It seems to me like the only reason you don't want to debate me is you don't like being confronted with facts.

I really hope that this isn’t the best you can do

First of all, the IDF seldom publishes its investigations, and soldiers are rarely, if ever prosecuted.

If you are so adamant that it does, could you perhaps give me the investigative reports for the following incidents, most of which have happened sufficiently long ago for enough material to be published.

1. The Samouni massacre during Cast Lead

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/12session/A-HRC-12-48.pdf

2. Gaza technical college drone strike during Cast Lead

http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/iopt0609webwcover_0.pdf

3. Al Quds Hospital strikes during Cast Lead

http://www.universaljurisdiction.org/images/reports/israel/amnesty_22_days.pdf

4. The Al-Dalouh massacre during Pillar of Cloud

http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/12/07/israelgaza-israeli-airstrike-home-unlawful

5. WP Attack on the Beit Lahiya UN school during Cast Lead

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE15/015/2009/en/8f299083-9a74-4853-860f-0563725e633a/mde150152009en.pdf

6. White flag deaths during Cast Lead

http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/ioptwf0809webwcover_1.pdf

7. The Rmeilat family strike during Cast Lead

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE15/015/2009/en/8f299083-9a74-4853-860f-0563725e633a/mde150152009en.pdf

There are countless more, but again ill make it easy, lets see if you can provide a credible explanation for any of these incidents, the investigative report from the IDF, and perhaps evidence of sufficient prosecution of soldiers involved.

Let us actually see if the soldiers involved were really persecuted in a just fashion.

And again, we are being lenient here, in that I’ll even accept published field investigations, even though they are basically dime a dozen when it comes to international law.

Read about it here:

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2005/iopt0605/iopt0605.pdf

As for your MFA report, that isn’t an investigation, it just states that investigations will be conducted into certain incidents. Again, not reading our sources, are we?

Let us have a look at two claims in this “factual” report

1. That Hamas used ambulances during Cast Lead

The only evidence the report provides is the testimony of a single ambulance worker who stated that ambulance hijack was “attempted” but was not successful. Yes, what Hamas did was reprehensible, but did they really use ambulances during the operation?

By the IDF’s own admission, they weren’t. Then, why were ambulances attacked? I can show you evidence if you want it.

There were numerous other investigations that found no evidence for the claim that Hamas used ambulances during cast lead.

2. That the Al-Quds hospital was used as a Hamas Base

The testimony used is of a single detainee who was brutally tortured during interrogation. Again, other investigations found no basis for the claim. Why was WP used against the hospital then? Why was the hospital shelled?

Many of the above war crimes are elaborated upon in further detail in the UN Fact Finding Mission into the Gaza Conflict report, I urge you to read it, just keep in mind that as long as the IDF can provide credible explanations for why it did what it did, those actions should no longer be alleged as warcrimes. (i.e, im not saying any of these reports are the be all and end all, im just looking for credible explanations)

As for your argument that it was Hamas rockets that were responsible for the escalation, in that they were before my quoted evidence, you should realise that i stated that certain IDF actions were responsible for an escalation, not the START of the conflict. There are several incidents of the IDF firing at civilians, injurying or killing them, in the weeks leading up to the escalation as well. Under international law, Hamas can be called out on firing at civillians, but not for initiating hostilities, because, technically speaking, Palestine is being occupited by a foreign force (you seem to think this is irrational, please explain why)

[JellyDonut]

lol

[enwiabe]

Inb4hecomesupwithsomebullshitjustificationfortheIDF

Sentiments like these underscore the futility of debating with you, or "mr.politiks".

At present, I have not the time to wade through his latest rant.

[Biceps]

removed comment.
Now read about those horrific war crimes which mr.politiks put effort into bringing into this conversation.

[enwiabe]

removed comment.
Now read about those horrific war crimes which mr.politiks put effort into bringing into this conversation.

this action doesn't change my point

[enwiabe]

Bee tee dubs mr.politiks.

You say you love the goldstone report so much. And I should read it. And it supports you.

I can refute your entire post with one link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldstone_report#Goldstone.27s_retraction_of_civilian_targeting_claim

Specifically:

Goldstone also praised Israel for investigating claims of war crimes while faulting Hamas for its failure to launch any investigations of its own forces.

But I suppose Justice Goldstone is only worth listening to when he supports your contention, right?

I really hope that a report discredited by its own author isn't the "best you can do".

[mr.politiks]

Answer the questions in the post please.

The Samouni massacre is documented sufficiently in other reports as well. I only used it to back up one of my cases.

Also provide evidence of the official retraction of the UN Fact Finding Mission on The Gaza Conflict by the UN. Also consider what the rest of the people who wrote that fact finding mission say about its position (you seem to think that Goldstone was the sole author, but he was only 1 of 4, and he jumped to a "retraction" without consulting the other three). And lets see if anyone can find any evidence that the reports authors have moved towards an official retraction, because informal newspaper comment is not sufficient to retract the report. And maybe read the follow-up to the report, the McGowan report, and see if it really supports Goldstone's op-ed (hint, it doesn't)?

And, while you're at it, evidence that teh IDF has actually investigated its military policy and doctrine it used during Cast Lead.

Your "specifically" quote adds nothing to the debate. I never said the IDF doesnt investigate some allegations, i said those investigations are not sufficient, and basically everyone who is working on this concurs.

Again not reading your sources

From the same link

UN human rights council spokesman Cedric Sapey stated "The UN will not revoke a report on the basis of an article in a newspaper. The views Mr Goldstone expressed are his own personal views." Sapey explained "A move to change or withdraw the report would either require a formal written complaint from Goldstone, backed unanimously by his three fellow authors, or a vote by the UN general assembly or the human rights council."

[mr.politiks]

And maybe what Goldstone said about his own Op-Ed?

"Further information as a result of domestic investigations could lead to further reconsideration, but as presently advised I have no reason to believe any part of the report needs to be reconsidered at this time."

http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2014686085_apmlisraelunreport.html?syndication=rss

Also, why is it that I am not allowed to draw conclusions from a report that has not been officially retracted, but somehow even when statements are officially retracted such as

removed comment.
Now read about those horrific war crimes which mr.politiks put effort into bringing into this conversation.

this action doesn't change my point

Still mean that Enwiabe's "points" based on those retracted statements stand?

Let's be totally fair here. Hamas has retracted its charter (reportedly), the UN retracted that infamous resolution, but the Goldstone report has not been oficially retracted. Its part of a process, and is crucial to that process. What i did before was hypocritical, what you are doing now is as well.

[enwiabe]

It's not called the "Cedric Sapey" report. It's called the "Goldstone Report"

Goldstone was the primary jurist and the person responsible for it. He personally discredited it, so yes, I think it's more than justifiable to treat it as discredited.

The only one being a hypocrite here is you. You're the one cherrypicking your sources, you're the one holding Israel to higher standards than every other place in the region. You're the one who never even thinks of making your moral outrage about Syria who is killing its own citizens en masse because it is a bloody dictatorship. Where is the "Syria" post? Where is it? More people have died there in the last 18 months than in the entire Israel/Palestine conflict. Where is your outcry for the oppression of those people? Their country is just miles away from Israel, and where is your outrage? You are the hypocrite. You are the one who throws a tantrum when Israel doesn't investigate its military to a level that satisfies your whimsical desire, but you don't give a flying fuck that hamas openly celebrates, dancing in the street when they kill Israeli civilians. You are the one who gives a shit only about palestinian lives, for whatever sick and twisted (likely brainwashed) reason.

I don't widely read sources about Israel-Palestine because I couldn't think of a better way to waste my time. You are welcome to be obsessed with this low-intensity conflict that has seen less than 15,000 people die in 60 years. If I'm going to be worried about oppression, I'll look pretty much -anywhere else- in the Middle East/Africa for larger and even more intractable problems. You can obsess over this because your parents brainwashed it into you that you should hate Israel. That's fine. You should know, however, that you are devoting a large chunk of your life to a colossal waste of time and energy. Good job.

[mr.politiks]

It's not called the "Cedric Sapey" report. It's called the "Goldstone Report"

The title of a document appears at the beginning of the document.

Read the title, it's on the first page

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/12session/A-HRC-12-48.pdf

[enwiabe]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Fact_Finding_Mission_on_the_Gaza_Conflict

First sentence.