TABOO TOPIC: Pornography/Erotica

[slothpomba]

Let's all discuss this under the watchful eye of Tony Abbott

Of course it isn't 100% right to watch (and read?) it, we have our usual arguments about degradation and the like.

Well in terms of ethics i think thats very, very far from being established (Unless you use the line of reasoning that Because im a Christian/Jew/Muslim/Conservative/Femminist, X is wrong rather determining what makes it wrong and why you think that).

You'll need to make some kind of convincing argument to support that before i personally buy that idea (not saying its right or wrong) and i think others would like to see this too.

However, to what extent should people be shunned for watching it? Should they or should they not be forgiven? Where do our expectations lie? Is the situation "if he watches it he's a bastard and should be shunned and that is that" or "it would be good if he doesn't watch it, but he can be forgiven for doing so?

Again, you're assuming they should be shunned without making a convincing argument why.

It's not too difficult:

(1) Rat poison is humans
(2) It's inherently wrong to harm humans
(3) Therefore, you should not replace the milk in your kids cereal with rat poison

Something like that (here's some more tips)

That kind of framework is used all the time in philosophy to help break down the reasoning behind an issue and it makes it very easy and smooth to debate over because you can say you disgree with (2) and why.

Another scope of discussion is the role of pornography/erotica in relationships. As it stands, in some relationships its central and embraced by both the male and female, in others it's banned.

Don't know the relationship status of people here nor if they have ever been in a relationship but it's a fair bit like teamwork. You have a few mutal shared ideas of what things should be liked or what you expect of one another, if you step over one of these boundaries, you'll probably wind up with some kind of trouble (in my experience anyway but it's just common sense for those who haven't been in a relationship before).

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I think the point chemderp is making is that pornography can be hurtful to women (especially victims of abuse, who end up doing porn in a viciously self-destructive cycle - and porn execs take advantage of their vulnerable nature). He's asking how much blame society should take for enjoying its consumption when it can hurt people.

Wobbles brings up a really good point here.

I went to a catholic school so they mentioned these kinds of things every so often, they run the idea that its exploitative and other things like that, they're all broken people.

I don't know if i fully agree with that. I'm sure there are some women who just see it as a profession and personally have no ethical problem around doing that kind of thing. I can't think of a reason why we should stop these people.

For other people though, its exploitative. Some people just need the money, they don't really want to do it but you have to eat. Other's have emotional problems, this particular story comes to mind:

Chong was born Grace Quek[2] (Chinese: 郭盈恩; pinyin: Guō Yíng'ēn), and raised in Singapore in a middle-class Protestant Singaporean Chinese family.[1][3][4] She was a student at Raffles Girls' School, where she was enlisted in the country's Gifted Education Programme, and Hwa Chong Junior College.[1] Former teachers and classmates describe Chong as quiet, intelligent, and studious.[1]

After taking her A levels, she took nearly three years off, including a year spent in the United States.[1] She then went on to study law at King's College London under a scholarship.[1] While in the United Kingdom, Chong got drunk on a train, where she met a man and agreed to have sex with him in an alleyway.[1] He brought along other men, and she was gang raped and robbed in a rubbish closet under an inner-city housing block.[1][5]

Some of these people are especially damaged and it's just a simple truth, an industry like this, has an incredible potential to be extremely exploitative for these kind of people.

That is solely the problem of the other partner being irrationally insecure. Just because the other partner has mental issues that need to be worked out before they get into a relationship doesn't make watching porn wrong.

I think it's far from being any kind of "mental issue" in any kind of pathological sense unless you're using an incredibly narrow definition of what is normative. Everyone is different, what might be "irrationally insecure" to you might be what another persons perception or Just or loving is, i don't think it's necessarily a wrong or mentally abnormal view, it's just a different view.

[JellyDonut]

Stoya wrote some interesting posts about it if you want to google it

Which one is this? I know she wrote a post on creeps and it was pretty well written

[Phy124]

Stoya wrote some interesting posts about it if you want to google it

Which one is this? I know she wrote a post on creeps and it was pretty well written

You can find some good replies in her reddit AmA

[thushan]

Let's all discuss this under the watchful eye of Tony Abbott

(Image removed from quote.)

Of course it isn't 100% right to watch (and read?) it, we have our usual arguments about degradation and the like.

Well in terms of ethics i think thats very, very far from being established (Unless you use the line of reasoning that Because im a Christian/Jew/Muslim/Conservative/Femminist, X is wrong rather determining what makes it wrong and why you think that).

You'll need to make some kind of convincing argument to support that before i personally buy that idea (not saying its right or wrong) and i think others would like to see this too.

However, to what extent should people be shunned for watching it? Should they or should they not be forgiven? Where do our expectations lie? Is the situation "if he watches it he's a bastard and should be shunned and that is that" or "it would be good if he doesn't watch it, but he can be forgiven for doing so?

Again, you're assuming they should be shunned without making a convincing argument why.

It's not too difficult:

(1) Rat poison is humans
(2) It's inherently wrong to harm humans
(3) Therefore, you should not replace the milk in your kids cereal with rat poison

Something like that (here's some more tips)

That kind of framework is used all the time in philosophy to help break down the reasoning behind an issue and it makes it very easy and smooth to debate over because you can say you disgree with (2) and why.

Another scope of discussion is the role of pornography/erotica in relationships. As it stands, in some relationships its central and embraced by both the male and female, in others it's banned.

Don't know the relationship status of people here nor if they have ever been in a relationship but it's a fair bit like teamwork. You have a few mutal shared ideas of what things should be liked or what you expect of one another, if you step over one of these boundaries, you'll probably wind up with some kind of trouble (in my experience anyway but it's just common sense for those who haven't been in a relationship before).

------

I think the point chemderp is making is that pornography can be hurtful to women (especially victims of abuse, who end up doing porn in a viciously self-destructive cycle - and porn execs take advantage of their vulnerable nature). He's asking how much blame society should take for enjoying its consumption when it can hurt people.

Wobbles brings up a really good point here.

I went to a catholic school so they mentioned these kinds of things every so often, they run the idea that its exploitative and other things like that, they're all broken people.

I don't know if i fully agree with that. I'm sure there are some women who just see it as a profession and personally have no ethical problem around doing that kind of thing. I can't think of a reason why we should stop these people.

For other people though, its exploitative. Some people just need the money, they don't really want to do it but you have to eat. Other's have emotional problems, this particular story comes to mind:

Chong was born Grace Quek[2] (Chinese: 郭盈恩; pinyin: Guō Yíng'ēn), and raised in Singapore in a middle-class Protestant Singaporean Chinese family.[1][3][4] She was a student at Raffles Girls' School, where she was enlisted in the country's Gifted Education Programme, and Hwa Chong Junior College.[1] Former teachers and classmates describe Chong as quiet, intelligent, and studious.[1]

After taking her A levels, she took nearly three years off, including a year spent in the United States.[1] She then went on to study law at King's College London under a scholarship.[1] While in the United Kingdom, Chong got drunk on a train, where she met a man and agreed to have sex with him in an alleyway.[1] He brought along other men, and she was gang raped and robbed in a rubbish closet under an inner-city housing block.[1][5]

Some of these people are especially damaged and it's just a simple truth, an industry like this, has an incredible potential to be extremely exploitative for these kind of people.

That is solely the problem of the other partner being irrationally insecure. Just because the other partner has mental issues that need to be worked out before they get into a relationship doesn't make watching porn wrong.

I think it's far from being any kind of "mental issue" in any kind of pathological sense unless you're using an incredibly narrow definition of what is normative. Everyone is different, what might be "irrationally insecure" to you might be what another persons perception or Just or loving is, i don't think it's necessarily a wrong or mentally abnormal view, it's just a different view.

@Kingpomba -

You were right in that I held that view without argument. I guess I was brought up in an environment where it was pretty much axiomatic that pornography is wrong and that is that.

I had also assumed that society in general - including you guys - would shun people who watched porn, at least to an extent - part of the reason why the topic is such taboo, hence why I never gave the option of society not shunning such people.

And I agree with you on the relationships point and the point that there are cases of exploitation.

[ninwa]

Not that unreasonable...that's just a possessive nature. Like once you're in a relationship, its assumed that intimacy is exclusive. Hence why its anathema to say cheat on your partner. Is watching pornography not in a similar boat, except one is fantasising over some other person rather than performing an act?

Possessiveness to that extreme is most definitely unhealthy in any relationship.

Cheating is nowhere close to watching pornography. I'm not sure how you can make that equivalence. If you see a pretty girl in the street and look at her and think "hey she's pretty", would you find it unreasonable if your partner called it cheating?

[slothpomba]

You were right in that I held that view without argument. I guess I was brought up in an environment where it was pretty much axiomatic that pornography is wrong and that is that.

No one culture is really more right or wrong than the other one. If i grew up in say Saudi Arabia its just a statistical truth that i'd be much more likely to adopt a certain religion and culture just as much as if i grew up in Japan.

With discussions like this, it's real hard to pin down right or wrong because everyone is just as much as a fallible, biased, emotional human being as the next person.

I think what matters most is not so much that your views are right (in cases like this where it's difficult or impossible to determine) but whether you can justify them or show some kind of reasoning.

It's fine if you hold that view or you grew up with it but it'd be great if we all tried to figure out why we believe the things we already do.  Just as a personal example for me, i consider myself to be on the left and that comes part and parcel with things like supporting abortion, wealth redistribution, being opposed to things like the death penalty, etc. Some of those things (if i point out which ones i will open another can of worms) are things i'm seriously questioning on their own now (as we all should).

I had also assumed that society in general - including you guys - would shun people who watched porn, at least to an extent - part of the reason why the topic is such taboo, hence why I never gave the option of society not shunning such people.

Well the Western World is pretty much the beacon of liberal freedom in the world, freedom of all kinds. This is especially true after women got the vote, the sexual revolution, challenging traditional ideas about intimacy and relationship, homosexuality, etc. The western world has undergone a dramatic shift in such a short period of time.

Considering all this change, i think it might come as no shock that most of us here in the west seem to have little problem with this (outside of religious groups who are obviously against it for other reason but I'm talking general society as a whole).

I think it comes part and parcel with the all the other kinds of liberation, opening up of personal freedoms and smashing old social norms.

[The more philosophically inclined among you are pointing out i made a mistake in the example of an argument, it was almost dr.seuss-esq too. I meant to say (1) Rat poison is poisonous to humans ]

[JellyDonut]

Stoya wrote some interesting posts about it if you want to google it

Which one is this? I know she wrote a post on creeps and it was pretty well written

You can find some good replies in her reddit AmA

Thanks dude, she comes across as a really genuine person. Unlike Sasha Grey, who keeps on harping on about some pornography empowerment, sex-positivism tripe

[thushan]

It's fine if you hold that view or you grew up with it but it'd be great if we all tried to figure out why we believe the things we already do.

Hence the reason I made this thread.

[enwiabe]

No one culture is really more right or wrong than the other one. If i grew up in say Saudi Arabia its just a statistical truth that i'd be much more likely to adopt a certain religion and culture just as much as if i grew up in Japan.

I take issue with this. There are elements within cultures that ought to be expunged. Let's take the saudi example. They have their cuisines and their music and their traditions. Those make up the rich tapestry of humanity and is something to be preserved and cherished.

At the same time, in Saudi culture, women are treated as second-class citizens. They are not allowed to drive, or travel alone. You cannot deny that it is a part of their culture. When people's rights are infringed, the culture is most certainly wrong.

Obviously not the whole culture, and you'd be a bigot to suggest it, but enlightenment does need to happen to all cultures so that all people can live freely.

What you'll find is that these elements are largely not specific to any individual culture, and kp may have been alluding to this. I think almost every single culture in the world has oppressed women at one point or another. Same with homosexuals, and people of skin colour different to their own. It's about maturing and evolving as a culture to get rid of those elements while celebrating the positives your culture has contributed to advancing humanity.

But I would categorically say that, yes, western culture is in a position of greater moral superiority than those still under the fist of religious extremism. I say that and I am not ashamed of it, and there's a reason we have so many refugees fleeing those countries to come here.

[slothpomba]

I take issue with this.

I meant culture as a wholesale idea, we can't say Indian culture is far inferior to say English culture as any kind of general rule.

If you want to drill it down to the specific details about certain issues, you could possible make the judgment that their view is wrong on any one particular issue, to take it to the extreme say of a tribe who sees no problem with slavery.

Don't lock to much onto the word Saudi, it was just an example, interchange it with Irish, or Polynesian or whatever you like and the intent of what i was trying to say remains the same.

Let's try stay on the main issue though which is Erotica.

[enwiabe]

I take issue with this.

I meant culture as a wholesale idea, we can't say Indian culture is far inferior to say English culture as any kind of general rule.

If you want to drill it down to the specific details about certain issues, you could possible make the judgment that their view is wrong on any one particular issue, to take it to the extreme say of a tribe who sees no problem with slavery.

Don't lock to much onto the word Saudi, it was just an example, interchange it with Irish, or Polynesian or whatever you like and the intent of what i was trying to say remains the same.

Let's try stay on the main issue though which is Erotica.

But it's very important, actually. Cultural relativism can lock these cycles up and prevent them from being changed.

I would say that many asiatic countries have desctructive cultures wrt pornography. Sexual expression is repressed, and it leads to myriad different places. Just look at how it manifests in Japan, where the censoring of it, coupled with their technological advancement has led to an explosion of the most bizarre fetishes you could imagine. Why Japan and not China, or Vietnam? It's because the cultural forces produced the reaction.

The highest per capita volume of porn searches in the world occurs where? In the middle east, one of the only places in the world where any type of pornography is banned by law. Humans all share this common curiosity about sex and the need to express ourselves sexually. But we are at the same time embarrassed by these private interests and this has led to it being shunned in many, many cultures producing some pretty absurd results.

A sexually healthy culture is one in which individuals are free to do what they wish so long as they aren't hurting others. And I would argue that such cultures -are- superior in this aspect to cultures where this does not occur. That does not make the individual people better or worse (who are simply reacting to the forces into which they were born), but it makes the living conditions far more palatable.

[ninwa]

A sexually healthy culture is one in which individuals are free to do what they wish so long as they aren't hurting others. And I would argue that such cultures -are- superior in this aspect to cultures where this does not occur. That does not make the individual people better or worse (who are simply reacting to the forces into which they were born), but it makes the living conditions far more palatable.

You say that free expression of sexual preferences is a healthy thing, but then why is the Japanese sexual culture "destructive"? Surely these "bizarre fetishes" comes with your sexually healthy culture.

I would say that many asiatic countries have desctructive cultures wrt pornography. Sexual expression is repressed, and it leads to myriad different places. Just look at how it manifests in Japan, where the censoring of it, coupled with their technological advancement has led to an explosion of the most bizarre fetishes you could imagine. Why Japan and not China, or Vietnam? It's because the cultural forces produced the reaction.

[enwiabe]

A sexually healthy culture is one in which individuals are free to do what they wish so long as they aren't hurting others. And I would argue that such cultures -are- superior in this aspect to cultures where this does not occur. That does not make the individual people better or worse (who are simply reacting to the forces into which they were born), but it makes the living conditions far more palatable.

You say that free expression of sexual preferences is a healthy thing, but then why is the Japanese sexual culture "destructive"? Surely these "bizarre fetishes" comes with your sexually healthy culture.

I would say that many asiatic countries have desctructive cultures wrt pornography. Sexual expression is repressed, and it leads to myriad different places. Just look at how it manifests in Japan, where the censoring of it, coupled with their technological advancement has led to an explosion of the most bizarre fetishes you could imagine. Why Japan and not China, or Vietnam? It's because the cultural forces produced the reaction.

I never said that the fetishes were wrong, I just said it was a weird result that hasn't really happened anywhere else. It's out of the ordinary.

I should also clarify, some of the fetishes are very wrong. You have a ton of schoolgirl rape porn (in the form of hentai) and some really dark shit that's very abusive. Much of it produced solely in Japan.

[ninwa]

What's wrong with schoolgirl rape porn if it is not using real people? (And even if it were, but using actors?)

[enwiabe]

What's wrong with schoolgirl rape porn if it is not using real people? (And even if it were, but using actors?)

It normalises a destructive attitude within society that it's a sexual fantasy that is healthy to pursue.