Music snobbery

[QuidProQuo]

This elitism reminds me of something my Grandfather woud say. He doesn't think that anything apart from the classical is "real music" and modern musicians and musicians from my parent's era don't have any talent. I asked him "What about Queen?" and he said "Who is she?" XD

Music is music and I think that great musical minds inhabit all genres.

I agree with your main contention here. But...I for one am by no means stating that classical music is the only 'real music' out there - I clearly acknowledged that it's not. Well, obviously it's not!
Nor am I saying that modern musicians are devoid of talent - clearly not what I'm saying and not the case. But I honestly do think it's fair to say that classical (I'll use that paradigm again because it's the most widely applicable) is a superior genre to rap, for instance. Whilst we cannot make objective judgements about subjective criteria, such as meaning and accessibility, we can, I believe, make at least relatively objective judgements about structural complexity etc. One can't seriously say that 50 Cent is a superior musician to Itzhak Perlman. Rappers often have no decent musical education, and so whilst I'm not necessarily saying that one needs a Juilliard education to be a top muso, one does need a grounding in traditional music principles. Because at the end of the day, the basics of music are universal, relevant to all genres, so therefore it's vital. That's not to say though that structural complexity always equates to the best music (often it does, but sometimes not - some of the best pieces are structurally brilliant but simple), and many modern artists - like Queen ^ - choose to invest their rare musical talents in a certain avenue which has a smaller-scale focus (which actually conforms to Percy Grainger's conception of the best music) and audience. I agree with what you say next, that great musical minds inhabit all (or most, I would conclude) genres of music - my classroom music teacher certainly has a near-universal appreciation of music and he's a well-known composer and prominent on the VCAA panel for VCE Music...
But he also has said that a certain level of elitism is justified - I don't even agree fully that it's 'elitist' - rather, just a critical perspective on a range of musical genres. Like, a literary critic who declares Shakespeare to be innately superior to J.K. Rowling in terms of structural sophistication, depth of meaning/message, language construction etc. wouldn't be deemed an elitist, would they? Just a good literary critic. So I'm accepting all genres as potentially meaningful, but analyzing their merits based on the extent to which they use musical principles effectively and how these in turn contribute to a meaningful piece.
Anyway, just my opinion

[Professor Polonsky]

I'm not sure that musical complexity is always a good thing. I'd consider The Ramones damn good musicians who produced damn good music, but it's all rather minimalistic. On the other hand, the amount of crap prog around - funnily enough, especially Italian - is astounding. (And I can definitely build a case around prog being the most ambitious, complex genre of music around.) Hell, even Da Da Da by Trio is decent, despite featuring like three guitar chords, a repeating drum which is played on something like a third of a full kit, and a keyboard which could fit in your pockets.

AFAIK, none of Hendrix, Clapton, Townshend nor Page had any musical training. Hmm...

[QuidProQuo]

Yep. Vladimir Horowitz once famously said (paraphrasing) that there is more music is a little Chopin etude than in an entire Mahler symphony... I guess structural complexity isn't the only form of complexity within a piece. Cause in, say, Beethoven's 7th Symphony, 2nd mvt, it's structured around the simplest theme possible - Bernstein nearly refutes it being a theme!! But Beethoven then works absolute magic in moving this theme around the orchestra, never getting that structurally dense but just making the most sublime movement, both technically and in musical effect...ahh http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr0kt0paKPg
I can't really speak for more modern genres, I don't know much about them in that sense (beyond the common details...)

[Fluttershy]

Speaking from experience as an electronic music producer, most EDM centres around a few melodic phrases, building up a sense of anticipation and then releasing it. There often isn't a lot of complexity in terms of musical theory, but I don't think that detracts from it at all. In fact, it probably allows a higher level of accessibility, which is always good.

Complexity is usually on the more technical side of things, such as ensuring the mix is balanced throughout the frequency spectrum, creating sounds that complement each other and avoiding distortion/clipping. But take a listen to this, one of my favourite songs and quite intricate, despite being an electro track. To me, this is artistry just as ingenious as an orchestral piece.

[ShortBlackChick]

^that. was. awesome.

just. end. the. thread. now.

[Mr Keshy]

^that. was. awesome.

just. end. the. thread. now.

+1

[Professor Polonsky]

Actually, I'm sorry, but Fluttershy's post did not do much to convince me. No disrespect meant, of course.

Speaking from experience as an electronic music producer, most EDM centres around a few melodic phrases, building up a sense of anticipation and then releasing it. There often isn't a lot of complexity in terms of musical theory, but I don't think that detracts from it at all. In fact, it probably allows a higher level of accessibility, which is always good.

The lack of complexity doesn't necessarily detract from it. What does is its repetitiveness, complete lack of originality and general crapiness of the whole concept. You can predict what's going to happen in one of those EDM songs before you even hear it. Accessibility is neither a positive nor a negative trait, imo. But the backlash you see against what you call EDM probably suggests that it's not as accessible as you think.

Complexity is usually on the more technical side of things, such as ensuring the mix is balanced throughout the frequency spectrum, creating sounds that complement each other and avoiding distortion/clipping.

That sounds like basic songwriting stuff, but adapted to creation on a computer rather than with a usual instrument. Sure, I'm sure producing an electronic track presents its own challenges, but as others in the thread have mentioned, it's also easier in many regards than with traditional methods.

But take a listen to this, one of my favourite songs and quite intricate, despite being an electro track. To me, this is artistry just as ingenious as an orchestral piece.

It's good.

[Fluttershy]

If that's your view of EDM, then that's fine, I guess. But if I may, I'd like to express my own views on your assumptions.

Repetitive- sure, it's made for people to dance to! If it was constantly changing keys, tempos, drum lines or whatever, it would be very difficult for people to get a feel for the rhythm of the song. Even more classical forms of music made for dancing, like waltzes, are fairly constant and repetitive (at least from the music I've heard).

Lack of originality- actually, I think the reverse is true. Innovations are constantly being made in dance music, new genres emerge regularly and a lot of EDM now stretches across multiple genres, taking different elements to make something completely new! Synthesizers theoretically allow us to create any sound in the world, and so listening to electronic music regularly brings up a lot of cool new sounds.

Predictability- for me, it's not about knowing when something is going to happen, it's about how it happens. Yes, most EDM follows a set structure. But in my opinion, it's more about enjoying the rhythms and the raw impact of a new melody or a drop, rather than looking at a stopwatch and thinking 'there'll be another buildup in 55 seconds'.

That sounds like basic songwriting stuff, but adapted to creation on a computer rather than with a usual instrument. Sure, I'm sure producing an electronic track presents its own challenges, but as others in the thread have mentioned, it's also easier in many regards than with traditional methods.

I'll admit that you come across these problems even when recording an instrument onto a computer for mixing/mastering. I would disagree, though, with your claim that making electronic music is easier than traditional songwriting. Because of its inherently repetitive nature, EDM must have a few subtleties to it, so that it's not just 8 bars of the same thing over and over again. This is why there are various effects and such in play; automation of things like filters and reverb, or even artistic uses of compression, are quite important- take them away and you have a rather dry piece of music. This is one of the reasons I love EDM- beneath the surface, you find a whole new world of technicality to appreciate.

[QuidProQuo]

Don't mean to be going in a circle here, just about some of your points:

- I agree that repetitiveness isn't either bad (necessarily - it's better if it's part of a prescribed form rather than just 'repetitious') or definitive of EDM. Your're 100% right, many classical forms are by their nature repetitive. Waltzes, minuets, rondos are all essentially based on a recurring theme, which is developed and perhaps modulated before returning 'home'. Nonetheless, I do feel that there's a significantly larger degree of a) thematic 'fullness' and b) developmental complexity in these more traditional, instrumental forms. Whilst there is clearly creativity demonstrated in EDM songs like the above one (which is cool ), I don't feel the same level of expressive intention and emotional development in them - it seems like much more of a technically-oriented development (which I think you said, so agreeing there), which is great, but it does mean that the piece falls down on the emotional side of things. Partly because I think actual instruments, being played purely by humans, resonate more deeply with human emotions - it's much easier to replicate the sound of a cry in a violin thick with vibrato than it is with the technology which makes EDM (though I'm not denying that it presents a fairly broad palette of effects). That then is the premise of orchestration and instrumentation - choosing what instruments/groupings to assign melodies, harmonies, certain rhythms to - for example, whilst the trumpet is ideal for evoking the grandeur of a fanfare, the flute would perfect for tender, butterfly-like lines, the effect of which is ultimately a combination of the instrument being played and the way in which the player plays it.   

- Also, about accessibility, as Polonius pointed out, it's a neutral factor. If we were to say that EDM is better than other, perhaps older, genres because it's more accessible to contemporary listeners, we would be discriminating on the basis of era. In the 18th century, (pardon the anachronism - just a hypothetical), musicians of the Salzburg Court wouldn't have received a genre like EDM too well I imagine, and so it would be deemed inferior music on the basis that it doesn't resonate with their musical interests (which is somewhat counter to what I'm saying, but anyway ). Similarly, it would be unfair to say that Old English is not a form of English simply because it is so radically different from modern English and thus since we don't appreciate it, we can discount it as a different language. Also accessibility is somewhat dangerous because it can cloud our judgement of less familiar genres, like folk music. We need to assess music with an open mind - cause often, the market isn't always the best judge.

[Fluttershy]

I think at this point we are going around in a circle. As interesting as this discussion has been, I feel like we'll never really come to a conclusion- we're just too set in our ways, I guess Let me just say a few things, before I stop bothering everyone with this thread (which has gotten a surprisingly strong response- I'm glad I could talk to you guys and get a fresh perspective on things!).

I feel like the more traditional styles of music out there are a world away from EDM, because of WHY they're created, more so than how they're performed. I still believe the aim of music in general is for enjoyment, but classical/orchestral and EDM are enjoyed in different ways (making a large generalisation here, I know). For the same reason you don't normally see orchestra-goers raving in the aisles, you probably wouldn't find most EDM fans deeply analysing the chord progression or technical prowess of a producer while listening to an electro house track (trance music is a rare exception here, probably because it is actually a lot more complex than most other forms of electronic music from a technical perspective). I think that's a large part of the reason we've been going over the same points again and again, at least in the last few posts.

I might address your post though, Adam, because I hate to leave a discussion unanswered. As I said in a previous post, we can bring music down to a very scientific and objective description of sound waves from different sources vibrating together to form 'rhythms' and 'melodies'. This means that whatever sound is created by a real instrument can be recreated in a synthesiser, theoretically. Why have an orchestra limited to very traditional instruments used for centuries, when we can use new, more original sounds that may convey the mood of the piece more clearly? Most good producers create their own sounds and instruments, which instantly sets their music apart from others, adding what you might call the human element that some say is 'missing' from EDM. Also, who's to say the musicians from an 18th century court wouldn't be impressed or even inspired by the sounds and craftsmanship behind some of today's modern music?

Can we agree to disagree here? I could argue my case about how I feel EDM in general is just as creative and powerful as more traditional music for a very long time, but I might just leave it here as a courtesy for previous posters. If you want to talk more about it, feel free to hit me up via PM

I might just finish off with a little rant here: my brother took my laptop with all of my recording/production software on it to a friend's house for the night and I'm getting really antsy not being able to make any music tonight. I swear it's like giving up drugs or something, I keep getting irrationally angry that I can't work on new stuff *scratches arms frantically*

/endrantforever

[QuidProQuo]

Agree to disagree, I like it Haha. I certainly respect your views on the topic, and I've gotten quite a bit of insight in EDM while discussing it...have fun retrieving your equipment!