THe Disparity between Private and Public High schools.

[slothpomba]

Oh, makes more sense now that you cleared it up LazyZombie .

I agree, definitely with streaming within schools, to a certain degree. I'm not sure how i feel about simply removing all the obviously gifted students from the schools and saying our work is done though, i know now thats not what you were saying but i feel its a point i should really hammer into everyone reading.

Are you not happy with the education system Australia has built for you?

I'm not, i don't think you should be either. I am grateful for it, i am grateful for living in this wonderful country but i don't think we should be complacent.

Being thankful isn't the same as ignoring problems and there are definitely problems.

Likewise, Patriotism isn't beating your chest and saying Australia is the best and ignoring everything else.

[EvangelionZeta]

Not going to offer much substantive just yet because most of the intelligent things have been said so far, although one thing to consider: perhaps the way to fix schools, assuming socio-economic status is an issue, isn't to fix SCHOOLS, but to fix broader socio-economic disparities between different areas?  Or even maybe introducing a policy whereby schools have to take a certain quota of students from different areas, not just for selective schools (as Enwiabe said), but for all public schools, so that you don't get good schools nabbing all of the good students AND schools in poor areas getting all of the students who don't care.  This might also help social equality/mobility more broadly too, as it might encourage people from disadvantaged areas to not lose hope (as so many of them do) due to the dire circumstances they are confronted by on a day-to-day basis, through exposure to people form all sorts of circumstances, of all backgrounds, and most importantly to people who are living both wonderful and terrible lives at home.  You could even say this would help rich people gain more perspective too.

A similar policy to consider that is actually implemented in the ACT, and which has provoked quite a bit of debate, teachers are forced by the government to rotate schools every five years so that you don't get all of the good teachers congregating in the schools with good reputations.

[Planck's constant]

Being thankful isn't the same as ignoring problems and there are definitely problems.

I know there are problems, and the OP has clearly said that he thinks the system is non-egalitarian and I totally agree with him.

But it's a bit rich for the beneficiaries of the system to say that the 'builders' of the system do not value education.
We must always remember who the EDUCATORS are.

[slothpomba]

I know there are problems, and the OP has clearly said that he thinks the system is non-egalitarian and I totally agree with him.

But it's a bit rich for the beneficiaries of the system to say that the 'builders' of the system do not value education.
We must always remember who the EDUCATORS are.

I'm a little confused on what you mean and i dont think i saw anyone say "that the builders of the system do not value education" (also a little confused on what this means). Care to elaborate on your views?

[Planck's constant]

I'm a little confused on what you mean and i dont think i saw anyone say "that the builders of the system do not value education" (also a little confused on what this means). Care to elaborate on your views?

I would rather not, other than to say that I find certain generalisations regarding cultural and ethnic differences to education boring and counter productive.
Besides, enwiabe has already given a good and thoughtful explanation.

[simba]

What I have observed being from a school which is pretty much in the bottom 10% of the state, is that It's mainly that students don't have the motivation to do the work. Yes, this is probably due to the environment that we have grown up in, as well as a severe lack of competition to do well in school, but as a whole, I don't necessarily think the education at my school is that shocking.

The teachers I had for my year 12 subjects were absolutely fantastic! But the problem was that barely anyone took that help and advice. My drama teacher would run afterschool classes every week, and I would pretty much be the only person who actually turned up to them!

Most students don't accept the teachers help, don't do their homework and skip class constantly. What I believe, is that there should be more of an emphasis placed on education in schools like mine. A lot of the students don't really 'get' how important school is.

[enwiabe]

kingpomba (:3, for those unaware of the namechange), I fundamentally disagree with you that good students should be held in the mire.

You write that you want them to be held in those underperforming schools because it's "unfair" to the other students.

What is more unfair is thoroughly disadvantaging those students who would perform well in a better environment. For most people at those schools, they're already lost. They've already had a decade of societal disenfranchisement and it's game over.

As everyone else has pointed out, and as I wrote in my post (perhaps you missed it). The key to fixing those schools is not funding or better teachers. It's a generational attitude shift from the community surrounding the school. We are not going to achieve that in the short term. So while you most certainly correctly identify the selective schools as a band-aid solution, I view it more as a stopgap solution.

Until the communities are fixed, there is no need to keep bright students in schools which will prevent them from realising their potential.

Not to mention that if everybody went to university, who would perform labour tasks? Some people really just do not want to study. They should be identified and given vocational training, as VCAL already attempts to do. Who are we to judge and say that that life is inferior? So long as they're happy, we should support them in their endeavours. I'm very thankful for those who take on the physical tasks of society. I know that my pasty white ass isn't cut out for it.

I think a separated system is the best. Not tiered, simply differently purposed. It's up to your value judgment whether you think academia or vocational training is superior. But that's a personal choice that you make.

[Planck's constant]

Firstly, i would like to  commend enwiabe on a great post.
It clears up a lot of issues.
But it does not go to the heart of the issue raised by OP, who said (in his own words) :

"It so unfair, that private school kids have greater opportunities to achieve their full potential"

We have to ask ourselves the question why would a parent send their children to a private school, at considerable expense, when in theory they can be educated for free at the local goverment school ? There can only be one answer to this. The public sector cannot deliver the necessary educational outcomes. This should not come as a surprise. More than twice the amount of money is spent on the education of a private school student compared to a public school student. Sheer weight of money prevails. Better teachers, better resources, lower staff/student ratios ... better everything.

I was helping someone with some fact finding for their English Oral last year (topic was Gonski & School funding) and one of the documents we used was the Go8 policy statement. This is what the Go8 are saying :

‘Those who can afford to pay most for schooling have the best access to the most prestigious courses at the most prestigious universities’
'A 20 point gap separates the median ATAR of private and public schools'

Now bear in mind that 'private' includes the Catholic sector which in many cases is even more under-resourced than the public sector, and 'public' includes selective schools. If you were to make a direct comparison between the top end of private schools (GSV, APS, AGS, Jewish Colleges) and your regular government secondary schools, the ATAR gap is probably closer to 30.

I can only agree with OP that the system is unfair and the difference is money.
Go8 clearly agree, hence SEAS and similar systems.

 

[thushan]

I think a separated system is the best. Not tiered, simply differently purposed. It's up to your value judgment whether you think academia or vocational training is superior. But that's a personal choice that you make.

Yup. 100 times over.

Doesn't matter WHAT you do as a vocation, so long as you like it and are good at it. But education is paramount in either academia and vocational training - critical thinking faculties so that you don't get easily manipulated by vested interests into misguided judgements.

It might help if vocational training were not seen as "below" academia, simply a different skill set.

[ninwa]

Tiered system is an interesting one but it has its own problems. Look up Germany's schooling system for an example of this

[QuantumJG]

kingpomba (:3, for those unaware of the namechange), I fundamentally disagree with you that good students should be held in the mire.

You write that you want them to be held in those underperforming schools because it's "unfair" to the other students.

What is more unfair is thoroughly disadvantaging those students who would perform well in a better environment. For most people at those schools, they're already lost. They've already had a decade of societal disenfranchisement and it's game over.

As everyone else has pointed out, and as I wrote in my post (perhaps you missed it). The key to fixing those schools is not funding or better teachers. It's a generational attitude shift from the community surrounding the school. We are not going to achieve that in the short term. So while you most certainly correctly identify the selective schools as a band-aid solution, I view it more as a stopgap solution.

Until the communities are fixed, there is no need to keep bright students in schools which will prevent them from realising their potential.

Not to mention that if everybody went to university, who would perform labour tasks? Some people really just do not want to study. They should be identified and given vocational training, as VCAL already attempts to do. Who are we to judge and say that that life is inferior? So long as they're happy, we should support them in their endeavours. I'm very thankful for those who take on the physical tasks of society. I know that my pasty white ass isn't cut out for it.

I think a separated system is the best. Not tiered, simply differently purposed. It's up to your value judgment whether you think academia or vocational training is superior. But that's a personal choice that you make.

I totally agree with Enwiabe. It is wrong to hold back students who have potential. If a student has the potential to perform really well in a selective school, then it is our responsibility to give them the opportunity to take advantage of it. As Enwiabe said, there needs to be a HUGE fix in these communities before students are able to reach their potential there, and it will take a LONG TIME!

A problem that hasn't been considered though, is "what about middle performing students at these schools?". These are the students who aren't exactly geniuses, but they still have potential to do well with some guidance. Will this split leave them not being able to reach their potential? I consider myself to be a middle performing student, and it was only through the guidance of great teachers, that I was able to get where I am now.

I have been tutoring for two years now, and the students who are struggling the most, are those who are being taught by young teachers. For some reason it seems that teachers who are in their late 30's - 40's are much better than those who have just graduated from a DipEd. Is the standard of teaching dropping? Are our teachers not as intelligent now, than they were? Our education system needs a HUGE overhaul. If more perks (by this I mean: At least a middle income salary, more resources to educate with, performance reviews and bonuses for those who are great teachers, and to know that teachers are actually respected in Australia) were given with teaching, we would have more able people entering the teaching profession instead of medicine or law. I'm not joking either, I've spoken to fellow masters students (I went over the 2011 specialist maths exams, and realised I would love to teach specialist maths) who said it would be a waste to become a teacher.

I would just like to add: older teachers are obviously going to be better, since they have more experience, but it still seems as though the standard of teaching is dropping.

[EvangelionZeta]

As everyone else has pointed out, and as I wrote in my post (perhaps you missed it). The key to fixing those schools is not funding or better teachers. It's a generational attitude shift from the community surrounding the school. We are not going to achieve that in the short term.

I agree with you in principle Dan (and in practice for the most part), but the burning question I have is concerning HOW you're actually going to bring this into practice.  What mechanism will bring about mass cultural change, particularly to the most disenfranchised and dismissed areas of society?  And assuming we can bring about change, is it possible to truly equalise the playing field (or even come close to it), when the outcomes of education (employment, etc.) are still competition-based, meaning that a shift in culture is likely to push the top end upwards moreso as well (due to them reacting to increasing competition, etc.)?

Some of your other stuff in the same post responded to some questions I had in the back of my mind already, was just wanting to see your thoughts on this

[Bad Student]

What mechanism will bring about mass cultural change, particularly to the most disenfranchised and dismissed areas of society?

If we make rappers rap about school, then studying will become cool.

[Planck's constant]

HOW you're actually going to bring this into practice.  What mechanism will bring about mass cultural change, particularly to the most disenfranchised and dismissed areas of society? 

One simple way would be that CSP University places should only be available to non-selective Government secondary school VCE students.

Discuss

[thushan]

If we make rappers rap about school, then studying will become cool.

Problem is that the rappers will be seen to be uncool then because it will sound very contrived.