SEAS Debate

[Eriny]

I would say that neither universities nor VTAC would be able to access any income data because that is very, very personal information.  I believe only Centrelink would have that information to access what sort of benefit and how much of it you should receive.  VTAC only has legal jurisdiction (if you give VTAC the permission) to access:

• Benefits you receive (FT:A or FT:B, Youth Allowance, Austudy, etc)
• Dependants (this depends on circumstances but it can range from any children you may have, spouse and even parents)
• Centrelink deductions (services such as Centrepay where you can pay your bills from your Centrelink benefits - not all organisations offer this method)
• Confirmation of your address (self-explanatory)

The way VTAC assesses SEAS application is all about evidence (quality not the quantity) and most importantly how VTAC applicants substantiate on how their hardship has impacted on their education and how it has prevented them from achieving their personal best.

Then VTAC actually has trained people and I believe, but please don't quote me, in previous years, they had psychologist and social workers assessing the SEAS applications.  Then VTAC gives a rating to each application and passes that rating over to all the institutions you have applied for.  Then the selection officers can use that rating in accordance to the selection policy of their faculty.

when I've applied for scholarships on the basis of financial hardship, I used an official statement of benefit issued by centrelink which included my income, the value of my centrelink payments, which payment I was receiving, and (I think, from memory but not 100% sure) the value of my assets. That statement of benefit is used as evidence of financial hardship in the VTAC application, or so it seems, according to the UoM website, link: http://futurestudents.unimelb.edu.au/admissions/pathways/access-melbourne/eligibility-criteria

[Gloamglozer]

when I've applied for scholarships on the basis of financial hardship, I used an official statement of benefit issued by centrelink which included my income, the value of my centrelink payments, which payment I was receiving, and (I think, from memory but not 100% sure) the value of my assets. That statement of benefit is used as evidence of financial hardship in the VTAC application, or so it seems, according to the UoM website, link: http://futurestudents.unimelb.edu.au/admissions/pathways/access-melbourne/eligibility-criteria

Oh ok.  In that case, I might have to retract my last argument and say VTAC might have access to that, but I don't think selection officers would.

[Professor Polonsky]

I think what you are missing is that by paying for your private schooling, your parents eliminate any educational disadvantage which you might have. Therefore, someone whose parents are not paying for their private schooling is more disadvantaged than you. It's as simple as that.

[psyxwar]

Oh shit, when you put it like that I sound like a dickhead ahaha.

I didn't exactly mean it like that.
I was mainly saying that, my parents put out good money for me to go to a private school to receive the 'upper hand' i.e. They pay $20,000 a year to ensure I'm able to receive the best education possible.
But if people are able to say that, "My parents didn't want to make sacrifices and spend a significantly larger amount of money so that I could receive a higher level of education, so therefore, I am at a 'disadvantage' and I should receive compensation?" wouldn't the decision my parents made be a lot less helpful for me?

As I said in my earlier posts my parents have worked extremely hard since coming to Australia with nothing, being at a true disadvantage, and now they're attempting to put me at an advantage which is a negated by a small amount because of SEAS.

But I know as a fact that there are people out there who truly deserve SEAS. I also said earlier that I support what SEAS is trying to do for truly disadvantaged students. It's got great intentions but it's been blown up and significantly abused.

I think you're still missing the point. Your parents might have started off in a difficult position; that doesn't necessarily mean they remain in such a position their whole lives. Obviously your parents have currently achieved great things and are able to afford sending you and your brother to a private school. That's great. The thing is though, they're no longer disadvantaged. You don't keep the label "disadvantaged" forever regardless of your current situation simply because you started as such.

Other parents simply may not have the ability to send their children to better schools. You're coming off as saying socio-economic background doesn't matter, and that it's their fault for not forking out large amounts so their children can attend such private schools. For some, this simply isn't a viable option. What do you think happens then? The children of the poor are put at a disadvantage, meaning that generally the poor will stay poor, not having the same access to resources as those from richer backgrounds. It's not like it's their fault either, or that it's something that can be easily overcome. For example, such students might have to help support their families by taking up jobs and therefore don't have the time to study as much as those from privileged families and therefore their grades suffer.

[Billion]

There was no need for him to apologize, because I was on his side to begin with.
You wouldn't notice that, because I hadn't posted through the whole debate, so why would you conclude that I had a different opinion than him in the first place? Was it because the majority of people were attacking you?
Jeez, you sure can jump to conclusions - I guess it's where you get your -16 rep from.

[eeps]

Do you know what elitism is? If you don't, look it up. You sound like a stuck-up private school kid.

Get a reality check. Finally, good luck making friends in university.

[deleted]

Do you know what elitism is? If you don't, look it up. You sound like a stuck-up private school kid.

Get a reality check. Finally, good luck making friends in university.

Yeah and I don't know why you're bringing it up. Well, I guess my arguments may have made me sound like one but I can tell you, I'm not.

And why thank you.



Anyway to everyone else, I'm not gonna bother replying to this thread anymore, I know I was wrong to an extent and I fully admit and acknowledge that.
Again, I apologize to anyone I offended.

Decent discussion though, thanks everyone.

[brenden]

I love how as soon Stick 'apologizes' for offending people people are so willing to forgive and straight away start saying, "No need to apologize mate, we understand! Most of us got the gist of your opinion!"

Meanwhile, people are not only disagreeing with my posts, but attacking me for stating my opinion and side of the argument.

I'm willing to bet if Stick had let me use his account to post everything I did, the number of thumbs down I received  on my posts would significantly smaller. Heck, maybe I'd have a few thumbs up!

People are attacking you for being a dickhead, not stating your opinion.

But okay, maybe they're one in the same just a little.

Go to the original post - Stick's - see how it's 'hidden'??!?!!?!?!? That's because it got too many down votes... I've heard rumours, though, that if you stick your head further in the sand, there's chance of finding some buried/lost logic. Best wishes.

Yeah and I don't know why you're bringing it up. Well, I guess my arguments may have made me sound like one but I can tell you

What credence does that hold? That's like saying "I fucking hate homosexuals, those faggots. Why are they kissing dudes?! Hehe, I'm no homophobe, though, I just don't want them around me!" You're an elitist plain and simple, even if you think you're not.
Just in case you were in any doubt.
1) You're a spoilt brat even if you disagree.
2) You're horribly elitist.
3) You don't know you were wrong, you've just been humiliated and you'd like it to stop.
4) You're welcome.

[Stick]

Just stop this. It's all gone too far. Why is this thread still open? If people want to discuss this matter further, let's do so in a clean new thread where we don't have to worry about these shenanigans. :S

[Dejan]

Agree with Stick, thread needs to be locked

[Dedicated]

Do other countries have seas? Just out of curiosity. And I think people from well off families have a different sort of 'disadvantage' to more less fortunate people. Like if my family was well off I think I would have been much lazier due to having a blanket to rely on or simply become a brat. Having past hardship has helped me a lot to who I have become despite making the path more difficult. Everyone at the end of the day has their own different challenges.

[Dedicated]

And seriously locking a forum when seems start to fire up is only a temporary solution. Maybe it would be better to try to reach on a agreement of some sort. Better to try then to simply give up.

[Dejan]

I don't think a agreement could be reached

[Stick]

And seriously locking a forum when seems start to fire up is only a temporary solution. Maybe it would be better to try to reach on a agreement of some sort. Better to try then to simply give up.

I only suggested it because a lot of this thread has become a "pile on deleted" discussion. While I'm no advocate of what he's been saying, it's similarly not acceptable for people to have a go for his neck. A lot of this has stemmed from misconceptions and misunderstandings. I'm going to make a new thread so that the discussion can continue, but also remain on track.

EDIT: SEAS Debate

[Mao]

I have moved this contentious debate to Rants and Debate. I think, in light of recent funding cuts announced for universities + funding for the Gonski reform, that we continue this conversation in full steam.

Any personal attacks will be dealt with. By personal attacks, I mean:
- Any 'privileged' person directly degrading another person
- Any direct attacks on a person's personalities
- Any counter-attacks against a degrading comment
This warning is extended to fellow moderators.

Everybody have a freedom of their personal philosophy. Criticise their philosophies, leave their persons out of it.


Examples such as this:

1) You're a spoilt brat even if you disagree.

I invite you to shut the fuck up.